Screw the B, and the K...

[downest]

Ain't Skeered!

You don't even have a CRX!

[ComposiMo]

Just cause i don't talk about one doesn't mean i don't have one

[RamaCrx]

Geeez!!! There is always this debate. There is no "right" answer.
So few people can be objective.
With whatever engine you have D series or B Series, K, or H22 you can achieve whatever you want, it just takes money and time.

I think the thing to do is just figure out what whp you want to achieve, will you use it at the track and as what autox or drag, do you want it streetable and to run on pump gas, and then look at th options for each engine. It you do it right it will cost money. End of story.

As to the H22 being just torquey and sucking, look at this video and this site.
This guy builds some awsome H22's that are NA.
http://videos.streetfire.net/video/8880 ... 0554ab.htm

http://www.dh-racing.com/

[downest]

Just cause i don't talk about one doesn't mean i don't have one

Well... you're... whatever...

Geeez!!! There is always this debate. There is no "right" answer.
So few people can be objective.
With whatever engine you have D series or B Series, K, or H22 you can achieve whatever you want, it just takes money and time.

I think the thing to do is just figure out what whp you want to achieve, will you use it at the track and as what autox or drag, do you want it streetable and to run on pump gas, and then look at th options for each engine. It you do it right it will cost money. End of story.

As to the H22 being just torquey and sucking, look at this video and this site.
This guy builds some awsome H22's that are NA.
http://videos.streetfire.net/video/8880 ... 0554ab.htm

Thanks Rich. I know it's important to have a goal to set. For me it's not how much hp I'd be pushing, it's more about having a fast, fun, different kind of CRX that I can afford to have. K20 again is out of the quesiton, and the power ceiling of it (and the H22 for that matter) is way beyond what I will ever need. For the money, I don't think there is a (naturally aspirated) swap out there that will beat the H22.
As far as tracking it, that's my main concern, and why I will probably keep the D or get another CRX. If I find that autoXing the 22 is a lot of fun, then maybe the D will go.


And can someone explain why torque sucks, because I really don't understand!

[ComposiMo]

Well... you're... whatever...

Que?

And can someone explain why torque sucks, because I really don't understand!

Because those who are saying it likely do not have a car set up properly for it.. i.e. LSD, GOOD tires, and the right shocks/springs/swaybar that will balance the car out nicely to allow it to lay the power down... or they have not yet mastered the use of the go-go-pedal to cut back on spin, and only know how to mash it and hope it hooks up

I LOVE torque. Let them have no torque... you'll walk 'em

[Capuchin]

i have heard that the handling is bad with the h22. is that true. thats the swap i wanted to to back in the day buy people talked me out of it. after reading this it kind of sparked the idea back into my mind.

[downest]

Handling probably sucks dropping it in and leaving it stock, but it's a CRX... why leave the suspension alone!?

[Krix]

my suspension is still stock ( i ran out of money ) and the car handles the way it did with the b16 in. I dont race much other than the occasional drag strip visit, I think the h22 crx will always have that love/hate thing. While I would LOVE to do a K swap, I cant afford it. I started pricing it out and was looking at 8-10k! Granted that was over a year ago, I dont know if prices have come down or not. Both are great swaps IMO.

[mattminerDOTcom]

handling should be marginally different then a b swap...the motor is positiioned a little more forward and weighs a couple ten more pounds, nothing major.

D's weigh plenty, my B weighs more, and teh H just a bit more then that. no big deal. Its a whole lot less then having apseenger, thats for sure.

-M@

[downest]

550 pound springs in the front, I think it will be ok...

[Capuchin]

anyone know how much the whole swap would run for? and would they pass smog in cali

[GSRCRXsi]

handling should be marginally different then a b swap...the motor is positiioned a little more forward and weighs a couple ten more pounds, nothing major.

D's weigh plenty, my B weighs more, and teh H just a bit more then that. no big deal. Its a whole lot less then having apseenger, thats for sure.

-M@

yea but you dont carry passengers in your engine compartment do you? theres a lot more to added weight then just the amount of weight. where the weight is plays a big roll too. myself, trying to get into road racing, i wouldnt consider the h22 for a crx. its just too much weight in the front. sure you can do things to improve handling, but with less weight (B or K engine) it will always have more potential for handling IMO

[mattminerDOTcom]

yeah but really how much weight are we talking about here? I mean, i shaved a ton of weight off teh front of my car....we could probably compensate for it.

I mean heck, i shaved 30lbs by switching bumper supports, and thats WAY in teh front of the car. let alone the other weight savings i have (battery, fuse box and stuff, radiator support, etc etc), but right there, that must be half the difference between the D and the H.

I think theres a happy medium somewhere, and it lies right around the cost to do this swap and the value it has. It really has an undeniable $$$/Power ratio....

if we can figure out how to compensate for the weight differences, and get it in there all nicey nice, I say, lets do it.

even with all my weight savings, im sure after i hang my heavy ass turbo and charge piping and intercooler etc etc, whats te difference really?

-M@

[GSRCRXsi]

ok and then do all the same weight savings to a crx with B engine and whos still on top?

[mattminerDOTcom]

ah teh guy who spent half the money and has the faster car?

'touche'

-M@

[downest]

You can always say, "what if you did that with the lighter engine?", but it's not the point. If it were about the weight of the engine, I would build my D and boost the crap out of it, it IS possible to run a sub-10 second quarter on a D series.
The key here is the economy of the engine. The H is substantially more power out of the crate than the B, that is not a question. It's also a lot cheaper than a B, also not arguable. I guess the 30 something pounds is a tradeoff, and maybe that makes the lightening necessary for the H, while it's not for the B.

Personally, I don't like the B16. My stepdad had an EM1, and I was disappointed when my D16A6 CRX with bolt ons would hold its own against that car. It was still fast (the EM1) and fun, but the engine just didn't do much for me, besides the sound of it at crossover through a 3" intake. I've been in B16 CRXs, and they really don't impress me that much. Last year before I rebuilt the A6 I was considering one, I'm glad I didn't. 1.6 liters is 1.6 liters, I'll keep my D unless one of these appears in my living room.
The B18A/B is doable, but it seem like a waste to me to swap the car to B series and then put in a the nicer version of the D15B2, for little power gain.
A B18C* is out of the question because of the cost, I really can't afford something like that. I know it's fast, I've been in Matt's car, though that is modified. An H22 stock would probably be faster, he says.

Now, I can just put the H22 in and call it a day, and still be faster than 100% of the NA Ds and like 90% of the Bs. Now assume I could afford the GSR or Hype-R swap, but instead swapped the H, and spent the extra money building it up. For the price of 180hp stock, I could be driving around 220hp+ bolt ons and cams.
And let's not forget the torque. Turbo aside, the old saying is true, there is no replacement for displacement. 2.2 liter is going to make more and more usable torque. Have you ever driven a Prelude SH? They move pretty damn well for a heavy car! None of the B series motors are going to come close to the torque output of the H. The K20 has very similar output, but at 4 times the cost, it's still more economical to mod the B.

[Baker]

You can always say, "what if you did that with the lighter engine?", but it's not the point. If it were about the weight of the engine, I would build my D and boost the [crud] out of it, it IS possible to run a sub-10 second quarter on a D series.
The key here is the economy of the engine. The H is substantially more power out of the crate than the B, that is not a question. It's also a lot cheaper than a B, also not arguable. I guess the 30 something pounds is a tradeoff, and maybe that makes the lightening necessary for the H, while it's not for the B.

Personally, I don't like the B16. My stepdad had an EM1, and I was disappointed when my D16A6 CRX with bolt ons would hold its own against that car. It was still fast (the EM1) and fun, but the engine just didn't do much for me, besides the sound of it at crossover through a 3" intake. I've been in B16 CRXs, and they really don't impress me that much. Last year before I rebuilt the A6 I was considering one, I'm glad I didn't. 1.6 liters is 1.6 liters, I'll keep my D unless one of these appears in my living room.
The B18A/B is doable, but it seem like a waste to me to swap the car to B series and then put in a the nicer version of the D15B2, for little power gain.
A B18C* is out of the question because of the cost, I really can't afford something like that. I know it's fast, I've been in Matt's car, though that is modified. An H22 stock would probably be faster, he says.

Now, I can just put the H22 in and call it a day, and still be faster than 100% of the NA Ds and like 90% of the Bs. Now assume I could afford the GSR or Hype-R swap, but instead swapped the H, and spent the extra money building it up. For the price of 180hp stock, I could be driving around 220hp+ bolt ons and cams.
And let's not forget the torque. Turbo aside, the old saying is true, there is no replacement for displacement. 2.2 liter is going to make more and more usable torque. Have you ever driven a Prelude SH? They move pretty damn well for a heavy car! None of the B series motors are going to come close to the torque output of the H. The K20 has very similar output, but at 4 times the cost, it's still more economical to mod the B.

This really seems to be quite the fight, seems like you are not sure what you want, you keep going back and forth.
I do agree with you on the b16, i have ALWAYS thought that it was overhyped and talked up.
Let's look at this in another way: The Prelude NEEDS the torque of the h22 to haul it's heavy ass around. How much torque do you need for a Crx? You say that you do not need that much power/torque to auto-x, so why even consider the h22?

After all these years, i still am not sold on the h22 swap in Crx or Ef's for that matter,they simply were not made to go into those cars.

Bottom line, you wanna use the Crx for auto-x and the D is perfect for that. You don't wanna foot the cost of the ANY b18c. Why not either keep the D and build it for boost OR do an LS Vtec swap?
Kind of a happy medium with a 1.8, they respond well to bolt-ons, & the LS motors are good motors to boost, so it kind of leaves the door open for future boosting if you choose.

[downest]

It's not that I'm undecided, I'm pretty set on doing the swap. It's just that the H22 seems almost too good to be true. It's cheapish, and makes good power, and nowadays the swap isn't that hard to do. Given that, I still only know of a handful of H22 swapped CRXs (part of the appeal of course). I'm trying to get the negatives of the swap so I understand it better before doing it. It seems like "H22" is a dirty word more than anything...

And like I said, I don't think it would be too much for autocross, it would just take a little getting used to. My car as it is is very easy to drive in autocross, I've driven Matt's too, and it's a little more to handle, but I think if he ever bled his brakes it would put down some ridiculous times. I really don't think the engine is going to play a big part in the autocrossability of the car, that's left to suspension tuning. The A6 does pretty well in a CRX for autocross too. I love my D, but something about the 22 is calling me.

[mattminerDOTcom]

yeah yeah yeah bleed my brakes, paint my car, the fun never ends

anyway, this H vs B debate will rage on for pages im sure, I think it really comes down to relative value.

If I had an unlimited budget, first I wouldnt be driving a CRX...but if I was id probably rock a boosted K...

Even if you look at my motor history. I started with a z6 swap, half the power increase of a b16 swap for less then a fifth the cost at the time. Then I tried buildin git up NA an dthat was not cost effective. So I boosted a d for in between the cost of a b16 and a b18c swap. And it was significantly faster then either of those. The only reason i have a b swap now is the crazy expletive teenage girl that totalled my integra.

When you are going to comapre stuff you need a yardstick to measure by, and price/performance usually works pretty good. If we can get more power for cheaper bigger faster, we just need to weigh that against any possible negatives.

Im of the opinion that you need as much torque as you can get. you want to feel the acceleration? get the torque. the only honda ive been in where ive been impressed by the torque was my turbo D.

either of the other optinos that were suggested (LSV or turbo D) are fine alternatives, but cost about the same (or more possibly) for similair power production.

Its funny for me to be arguing for the H, as its one of the only swaps i havent had. And no, i wouldnt trade my c1 swap for an H...but I could probably trade it for 2! and thats wear the beuty of this swap is i think

-M@

[mattminerDOTcom]

the other thing to keep in mind is that i give tom respect for having a budget, and not overshooting what he can actually afford to do.

how many half assed b swaps have you seen? where people run out of cash? or just half assed cars in general...i know tom is budgeting for the whole thing, pefect, in and running.

and i have to say, im excited to go and roam the streets side by side, big block h22 and boosted GSR.

im also impressed with teh level of dicussion we have here. at least we are not like HT where this wouldve been a mess to say the least.

-M@

[ComposiMo]

Yea, this would have been ridiculous over there... lol!

I think an H22 can be a lot of fun, and yes, i think its great that he is sticking wihtin a budget... provided that the budget is good for the H as well, and he isn't overlooking anything

[mattminerDOTcom]

ha well if theres a secret hidden cost we arent seeing, feel free to clue us in..

picture this.
2 days into it, we realize we need a plutonium rod or something.

John.
hahaha told you not to overlook anything

us.
have to steal it from the libyans

no good

-M@

[downest]

the other thing to keep in mind is that i give tom respect for having a budget, and not overshooting what he can actually afford to do.

how many half assed b swaps have you seen? where people run out of cash? or just half assed cars in general...i know tom is budgeting for the whole thing, pefect, in and running.

Exactly. I guess I didn't get that across before. I've had problems with my motor before, even though I *thought* I was doing things right. As it is now, my D is installed the right way, managed the right way, and it gets me where I need to go every day without worry. I would drive my car to California tomorrow with no worries except for the health of my back and kidneys. I've had a lot of comments about a clean swap job done, and I get a lot of crap from my friends when I criticise their swaps (like I can't stand a zip tie in the bay!).
I don't want to half ass a swap. I really think I can get an H22 in there for around 2 grand, without ghetto-rigged parts, tuned right, and above all reliable. If it can't happen for that price, I will either have to budget more for it, or wait a little longer. If that means a new motor or a set of mounts has to sit and gather dust on my kitchen floor, then that's what will happen.
The goal here is to have a clean H22 swapped into my CRX that looks and runs like it's meant to be in there.

and i have to say, im excited to go and roam the streets side by side, big block h22 and boosted GSR.

I'm excited for N13!

[downest]

Damn these reponses are coming fast!

Basically this is what I see me needing:

H22
tranny
Explicitspeed mount and traction bar kit
Accord Shifter
beer
lots of new tires

[Krix]

I still dont understand the "its not made for the car" argument. I mean if you get down to it, the b16 wasnt made for the usdm cars. It does require a mount kit and some massaging of the shock tower to clear the alternator.

This is the hobby we have chosen, modifying cars ( well most of us ) A b swap is like the mainstream path, a K swap is a new road and the H swap has a detour sign in front of it pointing to B-Swap Lane.
Alot of things were not made for the car, but we do it anyway. Turbos, superchargers, LSVTEC is a bastard invention if there ever was one, hell its a motor HONDA never built! The enthusiasts figured that one out. Its part of the game we play. i personally thought the b was ok, but B swaps are very common now. It doesnt have the appeal to me like it use to.

Honda did not intend for the crx to be a powerhouse, but a fun to drive car. When you get down to it, the crx is a fun car no matter the engine(maybe excluding the automatic, ive never had the joy of driving one), it just might take longer for the fun to kick in on some

I had the b16 swap so i chose h2b. I had the tranny,mounts, axles etc..
I bought a wrecked prelude for $1500, took the engine sold the rest. Made all that money back. Sold my b16 for $800, paid $840 for the H2B kit. I did need a new clutch and flywheel, still b series just somthing that could handle the extra power. All in all I spent less than $1000 out of pocket to get it in and running.

While i would take a b over a d, the b was quick, but the h is FAST. You can really feel the acceleration with it.