Advice on my Mini Me - prebuild

1761 Views 17 Replies 8 Participants Last post by ollie, Apr 14, 2007

mithuth

Discussion Starter · Apr 12, 2007

I've been kicking mini-me plans around a LOT in my head lately. After riding in John's car at the NE Garage Day I really want a high compression D of my very own... lol.

After spending some time reading THIS write up, I'm even more convinced to build one.

updated build said:
I'll update the first post with my new plans. But here's how it's looking now:

The Top:
z6 head
y8 intake
62-65 mm throttle body (still reading up on these as to what i'll want.)
P&P
Crower Stage 2 Cam
AEM cam gear
ARP head studs
3 angle valve job (once I find a place I can trust to do this)
z6 distributor

The Bottom:
a6 block
pm7 pistons
shot peened eagle rods (or tuner toys, undecided)
ARP rod bolts

Misc Tuning:
chipped p28
92-95 Civic FPR (I had previously over looked this)
OEM y8 head gasket (these are 3 layer metal reguardless of what you've read other places)
RyWire OBD0 to OBD1 harness

Of course while it's getting rebuilt from the ground up, I'll pay attention to things like water pump, seals, bearings, etc... I'm still working on what I'll do to tune it properly, so advice in that column would be great.

Any advice on what I can skip or what to pay closer attention to, assuming the head and block are mileage unknown and in fair condition?

Keep in mind this car will be a 300+ mile a week daily driver. I'm not looking for a RACECAR, just a daily commuter with a little more get up and go than the sluggish-at-best 1.5L D15b2 that's in her now. I would also like to be able to run mid grade (89 octane) pump gas if possible. (I have 93 available here if need be.)

1 - 18 of 18 Posts

Its me DUB

· #2 · Apr 12, 2007

Looks like a pretty good set-up. With the exception of fixing the wiring from the previous owner...I loved my old mini-me set-up on my last CRX. High compression sohcs are quick and fun.

When I did mine I used a couple resources here...
http://crx.honda-perf.org/articles/more ... inime.html
http://crx.honda-perf.org/articles/z6swap/z6swap.html

They're both a bit outdated and I believe both stay non-OBD (like what I did) w/ a VTEC switch of some-sort, but may be good to look over.

Wasuri

· #3 · Apr 12, 2007

Do you already have a p28? or the harness? I have both I'd sell.

mithuth

Discussion Starter · #4 · Apr 13, 2007

Wasuri said:
Do you already have a p28? or the harness? I have both I'd sell.

I'm gathering a definate list of needs before I start buying stuff. I'll keep you in mind though when I start.

The guys at D-series.org say I shouldn't run a Crower Stage 3 cam or pm7 pistons on a daily driver. They're also saying my setup will probably produce ~12.6:1 compression and that's too much. Hence the recomendation to stick with a stock bottom end. I agree with a lot of what they're saying, now that I've done a bit more reading.

So the plans changed a bit. I'm not sure what cam to use, but I'll stick with stock pistons for now I think. I can always build the bottom end at a later date.

So here's how it looks to be laying out now.
A stock a6 block with the y8 head. AEM Cam gear, y8 intake, 97 Civic EX head gasket (metal 3 layer), ARP head bolts, and the OBD0-OBD1 conversion harness. I think that pretty much capped the list.

For and ECU, I've heard good things about a chipped p06 set to run the VTEC. It's cheaper and works just as well. I'll do a bit more research on this before finalizing a purchase.

Any more advice is greatly appreciated.

See less See more

zulued

· #5 · Apr 13, 2007

mithuth said:
For and ECU, I've heard good things about a chipped p06 set to run the VTEC. It's cheaper and works just as well. I'll do a bit more research on this before finalizing a purchase.

Any more advice is greatly appreciated.

to get a p06 to run vtec you have to add the vtec circuitry into the board. depending on how much someone will charge to install the vtec parts. plus the socket, resistors, capacitor, and jumper wire. that your gonna already have in doing the p28.

or if your good with a sodiering iron and can sodier circuit boards i can get a box big enough to send u out 5 or 6 ecus i have laying here that you can do for me. lol and im sure it would be at no cost since you love me like that...

scarponze

coldtotouch

· #6 · Apr 13, 2007

Skip the aftermarket rods... not a necessity. Shot peen the stockers if you really want. Another option is 86-89 integra rods (d16a1), the pistons work in your case as well (p29, pm7 same shiet). When you say ARP hardware, do you mean rod bolts as well?

Read the FAQ on D-series.org for some good insight... (i'm sure you have, do it again, it's good for you)

I too am going this route w0000t all motor D 8)

mattminerDOTcom

· #7 · Apr 13, 2007

all motor D is soo 2002

just playin haha

[email protected]

See less See more

downest

· #8 · Apr 13, 2007

Ok Jason, I tried to take a break from the fourms, I tried really hard, but you lure me back with your D series talk you bastard! I've talked to you a bit about this build, but there's some stuff here that needs to be addressed...

ok.. the first gen integra rods aren't any better. They are larger, but the material isn't as good, they don't hold (noticeably) any more power than some shot peened D rods will. Shot peening is free/cheap, and not only will it relieve surface stresses in the rods, but it also adds a sort of preloaded compression in the rods, which is good because the main problem is tensile stress (sorry, too many mugs at the pub tonight, I hope that means something to you). If you are dead set on better rods for cheap you can use B18 (LS) rods with a little machine work.

Running 12.6:1 is fine, Matt got mine to run fine without pinging before, we'll see on Saturday if we can do it again, and that's without a dyno. Yeah, you'll have to run premium, but it's all in the tune. Why wouldn't it be good for a DD? You rode in Jon's car, which is totally fine for a daily, and it make more whp and tq than a GSR! I say run the PM7/P29, Y8 head and a cam. The cam is actually very important because it lowers your dynamic compression, if you don't want to upgrade the valvetrain use a Stage 2 and save some cash.

DO NOT use an RPM switch, that is ghetto, if you want to do it do it right and use a compatible TUNED ECU, VTEC doesn't just depend on RPM! I can help you out with chipping and making you a harness if you need it, and if you are down to drive out here again I'll help you build/install it (just bring all the parts!).

Your parts look good, and you would be running 12.6:1 with PM7s and a Y8 head, that's what I'm running too. Just for clarification, the Y8 OEM headgasket is the same as the Z6, it's a 3 layer steel gasket, it just costs half as much. Everyone seems to think the Y8 is 2-layer, I think that's because people think it's cool to take a layer out to up compression, it's not. As for the ARP hardware... the most important thing is the rod bolts. The stress on the rods is amazing at high RPM, you don't really see the head lifting on NA motors, it's the rods that let go. For 30 bucks you can't get better insurance, AND you can re-use them, unlike the OEM bolts.

See less See more

mithuth

Discussion Starter · #9 · Apr 13, 2007

Ok, I'll try to break it into sections and get everyone a reply...

downest said:
Ok Jason, I tried to take a break from the fourms, I tried really hard, but you lure me back with your D series talk you bastard! I've talked to you a bit about this build, but there's some stuff here that needs to be addressed...

Mwuhahaha. I knew I'd lure you back... Nice avatar, I wonder where it came from... lol

downest said:
ok.. the first gen integra rods aren't any better. They are larger, but the material isn't as good, they don't hold (noticeably) any more power than some shot peened D rods will. Shot peening is free/cheap, and not only will it relieve surface stresses in the rods, but it also adds a sort of preloaded compression in the rods, which is good because the main problem is tensile stress (sorry, too many mugs at the pub tonight, I hope that means something to you). If you are dead set on better rods for cheap you can use B18 (LS) rods with a little machine work.

Yeah, the rods on my list were intended to be shot peened before install.

downest said:
Running 12.6:1 is fine, Matt got mine to run fine without pinging before, we'll see on Saturday if we can do it again, and that's without a dyno. Yeah, you'll have to run premium, but it's all in the tune. Why wouldn't it be good for a DD? You rode in Jon's car, which is totally fine for a daily, and it make more whp and tq than a GSR! I say run the PM7/P29, Y8 head and a cam. The cam is actually very important because it lowers your dynamic compression, if you don't want to upgrade the valvetrain use a Stage 2 and save some cash.

Crower Stage 2 cam sounded nice when it was recommended. I was going to ask about it. Is there an OEM cam out there similar to it but more avaliable and cheaper?

downest said:
DO NOT use an RPM switch, that is ghetto, if you want to do it do it right and use a compatible TUNED ECU, VTEC doesn't just depend on RPM!

I'm definately not going to just run a RPM switch. I was talking to Matt about chipping a p06 to run the VTEC, but there's a lot of scepticism fro ma lot of people aobut hte p06. I will probably end up going with a chipped p28 since it's been time tested to work well.

downest said:
I can help you out with chipping and making you a harness if you need it, and if you are down to drive out here again I'll help you build/install it (just bring all the parts!).

Yeah, I'm down for another long drive out... why not? I had a great time last time. I had all my parts last time too. lol. That's what this thread is all about, making the proper parts list to gather before attemtping to build up the motor.

****************************************

When you say ARP hardware, do you mean rod bolts as well?

I meant rod bolts and head studs.

****************************************

zulued said:
to get a p06 to run vtec you have to add the vtec circuitry into the board. depending on how much someone will charge to install the vtec parts. plus the socket, resistors, capacitor, and jumper wire. that your gonna already have in doing the p28.

or if your good with a sodiering iron and can sodier circuit boards i can get a box big enough to send u out 5 or 6 ecus i have laying here that you can do for me. lol and im sure it would be at no cost since you love me like that...

scarponze

*pointing to Matt Miner* I'm not soldering/programming... he is trying it.

****************************************

I think I got everyone in there.

See less See more

downest

· #10 · Apr 13, 2007

Oh come on, soldering isn't that bad!

downest

· #11 · Apr 13, 2007

Oh and the Stage 2... I have that cam now. I'm not going to be getting a 3 for the Y8 head. After comparing my Y8 head to Scott's Z6 I can see why the Z6 flows so much more, and I think it's a bit of a waste to put that much hardware into the Y8. The Stage 2 is a damn good cam, it won't hold idle, it may eat fuel, and it sounds like a misfiring V8 when it's cold, but it will really wake up the motor. The low end is slightly better, and it flies at the high end.

Here is my before and after Butt Dyno. Same bolt ons (IHE etc), only the cam and tuning changed:

See less See more

mithuth

Discussion Starter · #12 · Apr 13, 2007

downest said:
After comparing my Y8 head to Scott's Z6 I can see why the Z6 flows so much more, and I think it's a bit of a waste to put that much hardware into the Y8.

Hmmm... so you'er saying the z6 head has an advantage?

downest

· #13 · Apr 13, 2007

mithuth said:
downest said:

After comparing my Y8 head to Scott's Z6 I can see why the Z6 flows so much more, and I think it's a bit of a waste to put that much hardware into the Y8.

Click to expand...

Hmmm... so you'er saying the z6 head has an advantage?

Yes. For better flow at high RPM (and that's where a high compression SOHC is making power) the Z6 wins no question. I should have showed you the port design, but I think you were sleeping

The Y8 has offset ports that aren't equal, called "swirl" ports because they swirl the mixture of fuel and air going into the cylinder. The result of this is better low-midrange and better MPG. Jon's running a Y8 head with that low-end kick you love. The Z6 has straight in ports called "tumble" ports, basically the fuel and air just goes right down into the chamber without going around corners and stuff. The Z6 is a much better design for high flow, especially when ported.

mithuth

Discussion Starter · #14 · Apr 13, 2007

Well then I think my plans just changed... AGAIN. :lol:

coldtotouch

· #15 · Apr 13, 2007

This is gonna be reallly coool... ALL MOTOR D!

ok to expand on the suggestion of a cam, and discussing dynamic compression ratio. This site breaks it down well, well simple enough for me to understand

Dynamic Compression Ratio

Why it matters: A 355 engine with a 9:1 static CR using a 252 cam (110 LSA, 106 ICL) has an intake closing point of 52º ABDC and produces a running CR (DCR) of 7.93. The same 9:1 355 engine with a 292 cam (having an intake closing point of 72º ABDC) has a DCR of 6.87, over a full ratio lower. It appears that most gas engines make the best power with a DCR between 7.5 and 8.5 on 91 or better octane. The larger cam's DCR falls outside this range. It would have markedly less torque at lower RPM primarily due to low cylinder pressures, and a substantial amount of reversion back into the intake track. Higher RPM power would be down also since the engine would not be able to fully utilize the extra A/F mixture provided by the ramming effect of the late intake closing. To bring the 292 cam's DCR up to the 7.5 to 8.5:1 desirable for a street engine, the static CR needs to be raised to around 10:1 to 11.25:1. Race engines, using high octane race gas, can tolerate higher DCR's with 8.8:1 to 9:1 a good DCR to shoot for. The static CR needed to reach 9:1 DCR, for the 292 cam mentioned above, is around 12:1.

This lowering of the compression ratio, due to the late closing of the intake valve, is the primary reason cam manufactures specify a higher static compression ratio for their larger cams: to get the running or dynamic CR into the proper range.

mithuth

Discussion Starter · #16 · Apr 14, 2007

I'll update the first post with my new plans. But here's how it's looking now:

The Top:
z6 head
y8 intake
62-65 mm throttle body (still reading up on these as to what i'll want.)
P&P
Crower Stage 2 Cam
AEM cam gear
ARP head studs
3 angle valve job (once I find a place I can trust to do this)
z6 distributor

The Bottom:
a6 block
pm7 pistons
shot peened eagle rods (or tuner toys, undecided)
ARP rod bolts

Misc Tuning:
chipped p28
92-95 Civic FPR (I had previously over looked this)
OEM y8 head gasket (these are 3 layer metal reguardless of what you've read other places)
RyWire OBD0 to OBD1 harness

I've been talking to my wife about how to finance a project like this since my budget got straight blown UP! And it looks like I'll just start at the bottom and build my way up... lol. I'll have about double what I had planned to spend into this motor. But in the long run having the proper rebuild done makes it pretty reliable, allowing me to enjoy it more.

See less See more

coldtotouch

· #17 · Apr 14, 2007

Places you can cut costs maybe:
The rods, you can shot peen the stockers and you will be fine for an n/a build.
Wiring you can do yourself if you take the time and trouble to do it.

ollie

· #18 · Apr 14, 2007

Hhahahahahahahaha...Nice graphed "butt-dyno" Tom. :lol: :lol:

I still like my 12:1 non-vtec D.

1 - 18 of 18 Posts

This is an older thread, you may not receive a response, and could be reviving an old thread. Please consider creating a new thread.