[cbstd]

Bin Laden knew that destroying a couple of buildings in the US was not going to drive the foriegn devils off the Saudi pennisula. But he also knew that if he could provoke a response from the US, he would stir up a Jihad great enough to acheive his goals.

Bin Laden's goals and the US goals are amazingly similar: Install and maintain despots. For the most part, we are backing "Royal" despots who will sell us oil on a most favored nation basis. Bin Laden wants to install Theological despots who will sell oil as they see fit.

At $100 billion per year to prosecute our military effort in the Middle East vs. Bin Laden's much lower budgeted effort, he is getting "bang for the buck." In a war of attrition, the low budget effort fighting on home ground always has the advantage.

We are draining our resources for very little return on the investment. The hearts and minds of the region (and most of the rest of the world) are firmly set against the US.

How can we eventually win this struggle?

Create a brutal, repressive despot in Iraq to maintain social order and resume oil production. Empower the Royal families of the Persian Gulf to purge their lands of any dissant thought and insure oil production. Militarily repress our enemies unilaterally. Give no quarter and ask for none.

It is all or nothing. Because the only other course of action is to admit our mistakes, give our war criminals (Bush, Cheney, Rumsfeld, Rice, etc.) up for punishment and beg the world for forgiveness.

Scott

 

[jfrolang]

I'm inclined to agree with you completely.

 

[Dren]

I don't agree with the military action, of any sort. That is what got us in trouble in the first place. I say our foreign policy needs to be changed from intervention to isolationism. Let the private sector trade with other nations but keep the government out of other nation's business. It is our government, not theirs, keep it that way.

 

[SETI20]

I wouldn't call hiding in a cave "winning". But that's just me.

 

[andrey320]

I will not comment much on this issue. To those that are participating in this thread, be careful. You may end up on some list, get picked up, and put away. This is how bad things are now... I don't even want to say anything on an issue that I have very strong feelings on.

 

[jmart]

I will not comment much on this issue. To those that are participating in this thread, be careful. You may end up on some list, get picked up, and put away. This is how bad things are now... I don't even want to say anything on an issue that I have very strong feelings on.

So much for freedom of speech, eh Andrey? Looks like big brother has already succeeded in censoring us. I know I'm not happy about all of my emails and web posts, instant messages and cell phone conversations being monitored by the govt.

 

[andrey320]

Yeah Jason, no freedom. I am originaly from Ukraine (former Soviet Union). My dad lived through the Stalin times and all of the crazy bs. He says that he is reminded of those times by whats happening here now!

 

[RamaCrx]

http://www.youtube.com/p.swf?video_id=- ... ZFYb7JP9DX

Here is the view from our friends in the middle east.

Their final solution includes killing all of you.

Unfortuately a moderate view like the following represents the minority:

http://switch5.castup.net/frames/200410 ... mv&ak=null

 

[ryan_long_01]

If those are my choices, I choose the "all" category. Let's keeping taking the fight to them until they surrender or die.

That should work out well...assuming that they "surrender or die" first. More dead people on both sides, more money bleeding uncontrollably into the military's involvement in the Middle East, a situation that's even more inescapable, more soldiers serving more tours where they don't want to be, maybe throw a draft in for good measure...and what are we even fighting for? 9/11 attacks lead to war in Iraq...um, OK. Of course, some insanely high percentage of Americans still think that Saddam was involved in 9/11, but even the Bush administration recently admitted that there's no link whatsoever (which reasonable people knew a long, long time ago). Keep fighting a war that doesn't have anything to do with the reason that most people think we're there? It's just one big scam, tricking people into supporting a war that isn't linked in any real way with the event that provided the spark for it to occur.

 

[SETI20]

I will not comment much on this issue. To those that are participating in this thread, be careful. You may end up on some list, get picked up, and put away. This is how bad things are now... I don't even want to say anything on an issue that I have very strong feelings on.

Screw that. They're gonna run out of disk space anyway.

 

[Laure]

It is hard to address this in a short post, but here goes.

We run the risk of losing, because we still don't understand or fully believe in what we're fighting for, or what the enemy is.

In the last few days, I've been disgusted to see all the news reports of the following theme: "It's been five years since 9/11 and we Americans still don't understand the true nature of Islam. It's a religion of peace." I saw a news report on Americans adopting Islam, and how it is a religion that celebrates individual rights and equality for women. (They didn't interview any forcibly-veiled Middle Eastern women for the show, needless to say.) I saw a flattering news essay on an Islamic outreach group that tries to teach us how wonderful Islam is, explaining how the prayer position they assume, head down, symbolizes their subjugation of the intellect to the will of God.

The enemy is radical Islam; the wider enemy is any system of morality that places self-sacrifice at the pinnacle of goodness, and tells us that in order to be moral, we have to deny our self-interest, and deny our nature as human beings, as "rational animals". One of our biggest problems is our own moral disarmament in the face of Islamic extremists. The thing is, they're NOT "hijacking a great religion", they are practicing it scrupulously! The only thing that saves us in America is that most Christians, even though they still hold self-sacrifice as the ultimate good, don't REALLY PRACTICE IT, or expect it of others. But, this hyprocrisy makes us weaker than the non-hyprocritical Muslims who are willing to sacrifice everything for Allah.

The first step in winning the IDEOLOGICAL war is to place self-interest and human happiness at the pinnacle of our morality, and to stand up and be proud of it.

In practical terms, we still have the problem of defending ourselves while maintaining the free society that we're trying to defend. In this regard, I tend to go back and forth between Dren's position of isolationism and Mark's position of taking the fight to them "until they surrender or die". If we don't want to defeat the threat militarily because we would have to kill some innocent people, and we don't want to endure decades or centuries of attacks while we fight the ideological war, the only alternative is to quarantine the self-sacrificial sickness of religion overseas, and to try to stamp it out here at home.

 

[SETI20]

Yeah, fundamental muslims are realy non-hypocritical.
The old man thinks he's the pity of the TV crew for sacrificing his son. While in fact he's just too chicken**** to do it himself.

They're just as weak and corruptable as anyone else. They just don't have anything else. Didn't you ever notice as soon as the dollars start flowing how they flip-turn upside down.

I think I've seen that behavior a while ago somewhere near here.
First the kids in the hitlerjugend are all shouting "sieg heil", next thing you know G.I.'s roll by giving them chocolate and they don't even remember the funny little man with a mustache.

 

[azulito]

I will not comment much on this issue. To those that are participating in this thread, be careful. You may end up on some list, get picked up, and put away. This is how bad things are now... I don't even want to say anything on an issue that I have very strong feelings on.

So much for freedom of speech, eh Andrey? Looks like big brother has already succeeded in censoring us. I know I'm not happy about all of my emails and web posts, instant messages and cell phone conversations being monitored by the govt.

Waaa? You can't be serious? If you think that spewing your opinions on websites is gunna get you busted somehow then you need a wake up call. There are plenty of people out there with worse opinions and much larger venues for putting forth thier opposition to this administration.

Post it up! Don't be shy! Get real! You must not watch much cable TV!

And if the Govt. is really that interested as to read your text messages then maybe I am concerned not to say anything about Islam lest you come after me with a knife like they did for poor old Theo Van Gogh.

 

[Charles]

Unfortuately a moderate view like the following represents the minority:

http://switch5.castup.net/frames/200410 ... mv&ak=null

She's terrific! I love being a humanist.

 

[Laure]

Yes - Wafa Sultan - she is wonderful! Watch the video, she's a real firebrand.

 

[azulito]

Unfortuately a moderate view like the following represents the minority:

http://switch5.castup.net/frames/200410 ... mv&ak=null

She's terrific! I love being a humanist.

She is one brave (or really pissed off) woman! I love her too! We should start a fan club for her! Seriously, it would be completely unconventional and weird, but damn, she's speaking up for about the only civilized philosophy that will work in a world of different cultures.

 

[andrey320]

Azulito:
I am not in a position to throw around my views and opinions. I am not scared of "the man", but I am scared of loosing my job. I work for a giant DOD contractor. Therefore, I cannot run the risk. I do what I can in my circle of friends and relatives. Last year, I went to one of the biggest Iraq war protest yet (in DC). I made a little movie from what I recorded and show it proudly to anyone that will watch. But I cannot say what I feel... that is too bad because I am in the land of the free....

 

[SETI20]

No offence dude... but if you don't stand behind what your job stands for, you might be in the wrong field of work.

 

[Laure]

I'm with SETI on that...

 

[andrey320]

This is the only place that is giving me a chance to work in a field in which I have no experience and to which my degree does not apply. I felt bad at first about accepting this job, but I do what I have to to survive....
I guess you can say I sold out. But a lot of people in the military and employees of companies that support the military are not supportive of the current administration's actions. You can look at it differently - I am working for a company that helps protect the people. The power is being miss-used. You cannot blame all the people behind it.