[Blackbird_Pilot]

Recently I ordered a MC off a 90-93 integra for my rear brake swap on my 89 crx dx. A couple days later I received front brake calipers off a 91 integra ls instead of the MC. So, I get an e-mail from the individual apologizing and said he would send the MC off right away and I can keep the front calipers, use them or sell them.

My question, will the calipers fit the front of my 89 DX? Are there any advantages? Or am I better off selling them. I haven't had a chance to compare them yet for size/compatability issues.

Thanks
BP

 

[tyson]

actually, you cant use the integra master cylinder alone on your civic. if wont fit your brake booster. you need to swap both out together if you really wanted to use it.

the front calipers from the integra will not fit your civic unless you have a EX 4dr sedan or have those knuckles, or integra knuckles of course.

so your question of what to sell or is compatible, youve got nothing usable for your car.

who even told you to get those parts???

 

[Blackbird_Pilot]

actually, you cant use the integra master cylinder alone on your civic. if wont fit your brake booster. you need to swap both out together if you really wanted to use it.

the front calipers from the integra will not fit your civic unless you have a EX 4dr sedan or have those knuckles, or integra knuckles of course.

so your question of what to sell or is compatible, youve got nothing usable for your car.

who even told you to get those parts???

I'm currently waiting for the brake booster. I have all I need to do the swap now. Just waiting for the booster. Sounds like I'll be selling the calipers then.
Thanks
BP

 

[jmart]

If you've got the master cylinder, brake booster, and calipers, why not source sone 90-93 front knuckles as well. They are cheap and you'll have bigger brakes up front and basically a perfectly matched system. The geometry of the DA integra front knuckle is slightly different in a couple of ways, but Its not enough to cause any problems, unless you're lowered like 2.5" or more. Just bolt it up and align it.

 

[Its me DUB]

If you've got the master cylinder, brake booster, and calipers, why not source sone 90-93 front knuckles as well. They are cheap and you'll have bigger brakes up front and basically a perfectly matched system. The geometry of the DA integra front knuckle is slightly different in a couple of ways, but Its not enough to cause any problems, unless you're lowered like 2.5" or more. Just bolt it up and align it.

Does anyone know if this is the case for say 2000 GSR fronts? I have access to some in pretty good condition but wasn't going to use them because I thought it may cause suspension problems. I'm going to be putting the MC and brake booster from it tonight.

 

[jmart]

Apparently the DC front knuckles have even worse geometry than the DA when fitted to an ED/EE/EF chassis/control arms. I think i had a set of DC knuckles coming from Matt as a part of a brake kit but I kind of forgot about them becuase \i nabbed a cheap set from a DA. The plan was to actually take some coordinate measurements to compare ED/EE/EF to DA to DC. DC calipers will bolt to DA knuckles, so to be safe I'd look for DA knuckles since i'v eonly ever heard negative things about the DC knuckles.

 

[Its me DUB]

Thanks for the insight. That's kind of why I held off on using them because you mainly hear people using DA crap, and I've heard a few bad things about DC fronts...until this thread made me wonder again. I'm wondering if you could counteract the problem with an adjustable camber kit?

I think I'll just be happy if I can get what I've got already to work...
(Stock Si front brakes, GSR brake booster and MC, 4040 prop valve, Earl's stainless brake lines, rear GSR discs w/ new 90-91 CRX brake cables).

 

[jmart]

DUB.

To be quite honest, you don't really need anything much bigger than standard SI brakes. Using a GSR master cylinder won't increase your brake power. I would say put the rear disks on the back. Get a new crx si or civic ex master cylinder from the local parts store. Buy some good ebc green or hawk pads and some fresh blank rotors, And maybe some stainless braided lines. Bleed the whole thing well with dot3 fluid and be sure to bed the brakes in properly and you'll be stopping just as fast as you would with some bigger setup. The only thing a setof bigger or more well vented brakes will get you is less brake fade under hard, hot braking condition. if this is a road car, big brakes may look flashy (guily as charged) but they won't really stop you all that much better.

Others on this board will tell yout he same. Just ignore my 12" front rotors...

 

[CRXBart]

Just got back from the junkyard, they have a 91 EX Sedan there. Second one in under a year. I feel that the stock brakes are inadequate. Since I upgraded both of my cars, the brakes work great. I run EX stuff on my beater and stock rears with a ex 15/16s MC, and stock booster. Now the CRX is a little more radical. This is the best setup I have ever used, I love it. 91 EX spindles, 95 Lude VTEC drilled rotors redrilled, Axis metal master pads, 94 Accord wagon Calipers, Rear has 93 ted brakes, drilled rotors, hawk pads, 1" MC, and 290V booster, 96-00 Non ABS prop valve. It is a menagerie of OEMness, but it works wonderfully.

The CRX setup uses 11.1 rotors same as ITR, and requires 15" rims, and some of them will not work like the RPF1s. The EX brakes are the same as integra brakes, 10.3, and will work with most 14" wheels. I shaved my calipers on my beater to fit HX wheels. I have never experience fade or warpage with either setup. I recommend against DA spindles they are not the correct geometry and add positive camber.

 

[jmart]

Bart,

Does and K motor weigh more than a D?

Also, I disagree about the positive camber from DA knuckles. It really depends on your ride height and therefore the angle of your upper control arms, which I'm guessing on most cars will only increase, making the camber more negative, when you put the DA knuckles in as they are ~1/4" taller from the lower ball joint boss to the upper one.

 

[Its me DUB]

Well here's the deal...I've got access to all the mentioned stuff for a really good price (helped a good friend of mine part out his totalled GSR). I figured using newer parts would be the best option and would leave the option of upgrading in the future.

So here is what I currently have:
Stock Si fronts discs w/ Hawk HP pads and fairly fresh rotors
Earls Stainless on each corner
2000 GSR Rear Discs
90-93 4040 Proportioning Valve
2000 GSR Brake Booster
2000 GSR Master Cylinder
90-91 CRX Si E-brake cables
Bought plenty of DOT 3 fluid to flush the system and bleed thoroughly

Now while I know that the Integra booster and MC won't necessarily improve the braking, from what I've read it sounds like it will improve pedal feel.
So you think I'd be better off just selling them and getting a new stock booster and MC from O'Reilly? I can get a new MC for $50 and a remfd brake booster for about $70. Both come with lifetime warranty.

I'm sure that just getting new stock stuff would be an improvement from my 18 year old worn junk. But, I already have the teg stuff though...so why not??

Although this is my summer DD, I do autocross any chance I get so upgrading now would be ideal. What are your thoughts, guys?

 

[jfrolang]

Go for it man. The teg booster/MC may not help you stop better, but it will firm up the pedal.

 

[signalpuke]

Man Bart, you have quite the brake setup. I have the DA spindles on mine because I swapped everything over except for the struts/springs. My car is a lil lowered so my camber is right on, but I am wondering if I should go with the EX spindles on the front now...I am trying figure out how that will change the strut travel vs the DA spindles, all alignment specs being equal vs the two setups.
Jmart- the K weighs more than the D, the engine, from what I recall weighs about the same as the B, but the tranny is heavier (especially if you have an aftermarket LSD). I read the weight differences a while back. I will try to find them again.

 

[CRXBart]

Go for it man. The teg booster/MC may not help you stop better, but it will firm up the pedal.

Yes, and with bigger calipers it is a great upgrade for they get spongy.

Bart,

Does and K motor weigh more than a D?

Also, I disagree about the positive camber from DA knuckles. It really depends on your ride height and therefore the angle of your upper control arms, which I'm guessing on most cars will only increase, making the camber more negative, when you put the DA knuckles in as they are ~1/4" taller from the lower ball joint boss to the upper one.

It weighs about the same as a B16. Now if you are trying to imply that my car is a heavy pig with the K, and that is why I have braking issues you are mistaken. I have a D in my beater still, and it has 10.3 because I killed the stockers. My CRX is no pig by any standards either. I bet it weighs less than a 91 D car, and this year I should be around 88 HF weight. I drive my cars hard that is why they need good brakes.

The knuckle info I was told by a reliable source. I never used them, I always got EX.

 

[signalpuke]

Nikos is the admin over at K20A.org, he ships a lot of engines and has to weigh them prior to shipping. He said that the (JDM motor with all accessories) k20a motor with transmission weighs around 450 lbs+/-....less then a h22a and about the same as b series motors. "A k24a tsx motor was like 305 lbs. An ep3 trany was like 130 lbs... just the header weighs 20 lbs.... the stock one that is... Accesories like power steering and A/C are also heacy so it really depends." -Nikos
Another member said "378 according to FedEx Freight, including the pallet it was on. This has engine, tranny, and the a-section of the stock exhaust manifold. No a/c compressor, but everything else seems to be intact."
And another member said "I shipped a K20a shortblock. It had nothing but the complete block, crank, rods, pistons, no sensors, no oil pan, no oil pump, no windage tray. weighed 125 lbs."
That being said, looks like the accessories really add some weight, all I have on mine is the alternator and waterpump.
I had a D16 prior to the swap and I felt the difference after the swap, it isn't bad, nothing a lil suspension tuning cant fix.

 

[jmart]

Go for it man. The teg booster/MC may not help you stop better, but it will firm up the pedal.

Yes, and with bigger calipers it is a great upgrade for they get spongy.

Bart,

Does and K motor weigh more than a D?

Also, I disagree about the positive camber from DA knuckles. It really depends on your ride height and therefore the angle of your upper control arms, which I'm guessing on most cars will only increase, making the camber more negative, when you put the DA knuckles in as they are ~1/4" taller from the lower ball joint boss to the upper one.

It weighs about the same as a B16. Now if you are trying to imply that my car is a heavy pig with the K, and that is why I have braking issues you are mistaken. I have a D in my beater still, and it has 10.3 because I killed the stockers. My CRX is no pig by any standards either. I bet it weighs less than a 91 D car, and this year I should be around 88 HF weight. I drive my cars hard that is why they need good brakes.

The knuckle info I was told by a reliable source. I never used them, I always got EX.

Bart, I implied nothing. I was simply curious about the weight of a k motor+trans compared to the d, seeing as how I've never compared the two. However since you bring it up, I'll address it. Since the k is heavier than the d it would seem that you probably have more mass bias toward the fornt of the car. You seem to have done a lot to lighten the car, which I'm betting takes a lot of the weight off the back end of the car as wella s some off the front. If any of this assumption speculation and implication is true, then perhaps having bigger brakes up front, and thus biasing your braking power to the spot that is also weight biased, you do get better braking.
But in the end, what really qualifies me to make ssuch assumptions??

And regarding the DA knuckles, its a little ignorant to make a blanket statement like "they increase negative camber." this is one of those honda tech-esque things that really irks me. You overall camber, caster an toe depends on many factors and part sin the suspension, their static settings as well as their dynamic ones when under various driving conditions.

 

[downest]

The debate over the DA knuckles comes up all the time, Here's a link with a pretty comprehensive comparison. It's angelfire, so it might go over bandwidth or something... it's not mine but I saved everything from it if that does happen.

 

[bobski]

Here's a link with a pretty comprehensive comparison.

By DA, I assume they mean '90-93 Integra parts... Some '86-89 'tegs had DA# VINs.
Looking at the comparison, it seems to me that using DA knuckles over ED (or does this guy really mean EF?) parts would give you a little more base negative camber (the inset lower ball joint forces the bottom of the knuckle outward when installed), about 1/2" wider front track (both sides included, due to the relocated ball joint, less the bearing move) and a very slightly more aggressive camber curve (due to the 0.9mm height difference).
If you're going to run stock springs/shocks, the DA parts would probably be a good move performance wise, as they would correct the stock positive camber. If you're going to lower the car much, you will probably already have enough negative camber to compensate, so DA knuckles would be going too far, if the springs hadn't already.

 

[downest]

Here's a link with a pretty comprehensive comparison.

By DA, I assume they mean '90-93 Integra parts... Some '86-89 'tegs had DA# VINs.

They definitely mean 90-93, the 86-89 teg hubs look nothing like that, they are more like a first gen CRX.

 

[signalpuke]

I have a question regarding the DA and SI calipers...piston size?