[Charles]

I'd like to see where in the bible it says anything about forcing people to convert to Christianity.

A decent opinion piece about how the political incarnation of fundamental christianity is not what Jesus would do.
Forum: A country divided by Christ
Claiming God for your political party, says the Rev. Dr. N. Graham Standish, is a dangerous folly

Bashing christians is not any better than bashing those who are not. But it is not only acceptable, but honorable, to resist the practices of those christians in power in this country who are trying to ostracize anyone who does not blindly believe as they do.

If one truly followed the teaching of Jesus, they would not do much of what the current intolerant christians are doing. I think Jesus would probably exclaim with surprise, "I said WHAT?.

<brownnose>The country would be better off if our leaders ran the country the way Tom runs this forum. He has his views, but has not used his power to squealch ours. </brownnose>

And those of us who rail against those who persecute our rational beliefs, we must not be like those we protest. It only fuels the division of our world. Be like Jesus and wash the prostitute's feet.

 

[Charles]

Another great piece by those wacky Unitarian-Universalists.

For those that shun lengthy ideas, I have included an interesting study from the article. Notice that this applies to any religious/philosophical fundamentalism. Best not to comment unless you read the entire article to understand the content of my excerpt.

From 1988 to 1993, the American Academy of Arts and Sciences sponsored an interdisciplinary study known as The Fundamentalism Project, the largest such study ever done. More than 100 scholars from all over the world took part, reporting on every imaginable kind of fundamentalism. And what they discovered was that the agenda of all fundamentalist movements in the world is virtually identical, regardless of religion or culture.

They identified five characteristics shared by virtually all fundamentalisms...

1) The fundamentalists' agenda starts with insistence that their rules must be made to apply to all people, and to all areas of life...

2) The second agenda item is really at the top of the list, and it's vulgarly simple: Men are on top...

3) ...Fundamentalists must control education by controlling textbooks and teaching styles, deciding what may and may not be taught...

4) Fourth, fundamentalists spurn the modern, and want to return to a nostalgic vision of a golden age that never really existed...

5) The fifth point is the most abstract, though it's foundational. Fundamentalists deny history in a radical and idiosyncratic way...

 

[Dren]

I am a big fan of Dao/Taoism. The "higher power" is really just energy life force that lies within everything. Kind of makes sense cause everything is energy in the scientific sense. There is no personifing this energy thus followers of Daoism do not pray to anything. They respect their surroundings and live peaceful lives. A very good religion for peace but a very bad religion for those power hungry who want to control the masses. Probably why the government in China tried to erradicate Daoism in the past.

 

[Charles]

There is a wonderful phrase that sums up how I feel about this situation. "Actions speak louder than words" Those that claim a religion are not always a true representation of what that religion teaches.

That's true. Fundamentalism <> religion. However, religion or the belief in the supernatural is often the means to fundamentalist power.

My fundamentalist buddy would argue that actions won't get you into heaven. No matter how good a person you are and how many you help, if you do not believe in a particular supernatural god manifested in a certain mortal, you will burn in hell for eternity. That's the difference between fundamentalism and quietly exercising your faith.

 

[SETI20]

I had another thought and I had to come back in to write it down.

What matters more than the view you have is your motivation behind it and your presentation of your ideals. If your main objective was to help people live and learn and make their own decisions there would be no reason to to make posts like "religion = lack of intelligence".

Maybe you should conecentrate more on helping people to find better ways to live their lives than trying to prove that your way alone is the right way. You bash extremists yet you are an extremist in your own right. The only difference being that you hold a different belief set.

That is what bothers people about your posts and why you are very unsuccesfull in getting your point across in a logical manner.

I have no real interest in what bothers people or not, nor am I trying to "make a point". There is no reasoning on this topic. Wars are fought over this, so I have no illusions I can make you, or anyone else see the light (pun intended) in a few posts on a car forum. You'll have to figure it out for yourself.
I try to help people, and foremost help them guide themselves through life to the best of my abilities. I do not need to hide behind any religion to do so. Altho I have to admit, some of the stories are a good guide to a better way of life. On the other hand, alot of other religions have good stories...erhm..sorry..prophecy's too. But they're all more common sense.
I think if you try more to interpret what I am saying, than concentrating on the physical words on your screen, you would get a much better idea of what I'm trying to say.

My vision does not translate over well in just a couple of forum posts.
Oh, the fact that mike and mark have about 20 years more experience in the english language might help a bit too.

So either come back in 20 years, or learn dutch.

However, I smell that you're deliberately trying to read something different in my posts as I intend them.

 

[SETI20]

Oh, and for the record; there is an important difference between provocative and hurtful.

It's in the eye of the beholder, as they say.

 

[Charles]

Oh, and for the record; there is an important difference between provocative and hurtful.

It's in the eye of the beholder, as they say.

But within a community (where social norms are developed), the beholder can present their ideas in less inflammatory words so that the message is more readily understood if not accepted. It is the personal goal of mine as I have been a hotheaded loudmouth on many occasions. It hurts my credibility if I argue with more emotion than logic.

 

[SETI20]

In my experience, harsh words are more effective than the touchy feely approach. It will be confrontational at that moment in time, but will instigate more thought.

Ofcourse this is very person and subject related. You can't just tell a little kid to "suck it up", or a rape victim to "stop whining and get over it".

You have to be able to relativate, applicate and associate.

 

[SETI20]

....we might need a "psychology" forum too. :lol:

 

[Ragnaarok]

....we might need a "psychology" forum too. :lol:

"amen" to that.

I have throughly enjoyed reading this discussion thus far. Though I won't pretend to have much knowledge on religion, being that it is not really part of my life in any way, I have an idea that I have pondered from time to time.

Doesn't it seem that world regions that are less well off or less educated seem to eat up religion while people in better off areas of the world seem to be way less fundamentalist? As was mentioned earlier, your next door neighbor muslim friend is probably not an extremist and would be offended if labeled as such. I think the problems of the middle east are not so much just plain islamic fundamentalism, but a deeper disatisfaction with their state in the world. The government and religion of countries there puts a damper on change and does not let the youth grow however they might want to, so of course they are angry, and extremists groups have ways of farming that anger. Iranian youth started to pick up western culture much like Japan has, only to be stifled by the older leadership. The world needs a few open minded leaders in the middle east and a couple generations of kids to change minds. How that could be made reality I don't know...

 

[I4sillypwr]

In my experience, harsh words are more effective than the touchy feely approach. It will be confrontational at that moment in time, but will instigate more thought.

Ofcourse this is very person and subject related. You can't just tell a little kid to "suck it up", or a rape victim to "stop whining and get over it".

You have to be able to relativate, applicate and associate.

*takes off kid gloves*

Ok so you respond to that kind of talk eh? Lets dance.

I've read everything you've written and I can sum it up in a short, blunt paragraph. Here goes.

*starts typing as Seti*

Hi, My name is Bas. I don't like organized religion of any kind and any anyone that does believe in it is obviously stupid and unintelligent. I believe in a higher power of some sort. I don't believe in heaven or hell and I think people should just try to live a good life. I just want to tell people that they are unsmart(yeah i meant to type that) if they believe in any form of organized religion as a way to live a good life because I am smarter than them and they should know that by now. I have no logical reason to attempt to draw people away from their beliefs because mine don't really require anyone to believe in anything for eveything to work out. I just like doing it because I want to be right. Oh and did I mention since I don't like religion and other people do I'm smarter than they are? I almost forgot that part. My mistake.

-Bas

PS: I'm smarter than you.

PSS: No really...I am.

^above is my writing as Seti incase it got confusing

Believe me when I say that I understand the content of your posts as you are very well written Bas. I'm used to understanding people who speak English as a second language because my dads first language is Latvian.

If you don't believe in a higher power that holds people accountable for their actions then why do even bother to try and tell them they are wrong? It's extremism and fundamentalism(SP) at it's best only without a real cause which actually makes it more silly than people who actually believe in a cause to fight for.

If you can come up with one LOGICAL reason to denounce anyones faith based upon what you believe in I will owe you a beer.

-David

 

[SETI20]

Ahh so you're getting all rhetorical on me eh.
Logical and faith in one sentence.... that does not compute.
What'd I win? Where's my beer?

I -do- have sound reasons to 'fight' for. I am not just throwing a tantrum with todays topic being religious faith.
I do have beliefs. I think you're wasting your time and making yourself dependant with yours...but hey, it's your life.

I have studied history, and socioligy. I've been to bible classes and been to theology classes on a weekly base. I come from a rich cultural and religious environment. I can honestly say, that organised religion, as you call it, is actively trying to keep it's followers stupid and naive. (Where'd dinosaurs fit in the theology again?)

To start with, it's a proven fact that people actively practicing a faith, any faith, in a tight knit community, makes them more succeptable to the peer pressures involved. Like you said yourself; people practicing a faith do not perse represent that faiths guides to its fullest, or even at all.

This is where socioligy kicks in. People are sheep, as stated before. It's also a known fact that power corrupts. See a pattern here? I don't think I need to elaborate on this. Point is, that it's mostly the people referred to above, that are the key figures in the "organised religion".

So yes, I have a big problem with organised religion.

Look, the principles are all sound.
A community to keep eachother in check. Works fine most times...up to a point obviously.
Some sort of faith or religion, for a bit of much needed comfort and support at times. It's definately cheaper than a shrink.
Psychologically speaking it's all good and well. If it works for you, fine. I prefer to talk to real people instead.

It starts becoming a problem when someone walks up to me , telling me what a bad person I am for working on a sunday, when I'm trying to get someone's car running so he can make an honest living the next day.

We make fun of a bushwhacking negroe in a grass skirt with a carved mask on doing a rain dance. Yet a bishop with a robe on and a pointy hat is serious business? Come on now...you're asking me for a logical reason?

 

[SETI20]

...and you do a lousy impersonation of me.
But then again, you're not as smart as I am.

Thank god you're funny though :lol:

 

[crxfisher]

It's been a great discussion so far guys. But one of the rules in the forum is respect. If this turns into personal attacks, I'll have to lock the thread. It's one thing to argue a point of view, possibly "offending" someone. But it's completely different when you single out and start attacking an individual. Just wanted to bring it up.

And, to add another note in here that Charles wrote. I hate it when people mix politics and religion. They really don't go together. So Charles, you're right about it being ridiculous that Christians automatically vote Republican. For the record, I'm a Christian. I don't consider myself a Republican, Democrat, or Libertarian. I vote for who I think is fit to LEAD. I risk being shot down by my Christian friends when I talk about this, but I voted for Bush the second term ONLY because I thought he was the lesser of two evils. John Kerry in my opinion was one of the worst possible leaders this country could have. Voting for Bush was really just a way for me to keep Kerry out of the seat. I didn't vote for Bush because I think he's a Christian. I'm not sure if he is or not, it's not up to me to decide that, and it shouldn't really matter. Politics and religion should be kept separate. That's what I think. But what I think doesn't really matter.

There's so much more I want to say. And I wouldn't mind discussing the topic some time over a beer, as Bas said. Maybe at N13? Yes, I'm a Christian and I do drink beer.....in careful moderation. And remember, keep it clean guys, lay off the personal attacks. That gets us nowhere. eace:

 

[crxfisher]

But within a community (where social norms are developed), the beholder can present their ideas in less inflammatory words so that the message is more readily understood if not accepted. It is the personal goal of mine as I have been a hotheaded loudmouth on many occasions. It hurts my credibility if I argue with more emotion than logic.

Very well put Charles. :nod:

 

[Charles]

But within a community (where social norms are developed), the beholder can present their ideas in less inflammatory words so that the message is more readily understood if not accepted. It is the personal goal of mine as I have been a hotheaded loudmouth on many occasions. It hurts my credibility if I argue with more emotion than logic.

Very well put Charles. :nod:

So will you throw off that yoke of religion now?

 

[SETI20]

Dave and I like to jab at eachother once in a while.
We're both thick skulled enough and have big enough ego's not to take it personal.

 

[Charles]

Dave and I like to jab at eachother once in a while.
We're both thick skulled enough and have big enough ego's not to take it personal.

Just to help with your english, "thick-skulled" means kinda stupid. Perhaps you meant "thick-skinned". Then again, maybe you did mean "thick skulled". :lol:

BTW, does anyone there really say "Jij eet smegmakaas"/

 

[SETI20]

Yes, I meant thick-skulled. :wink:

And I have no clue what "smegekaas" is.
It looks a little bit like you mean either cream cheese (translated smear-cheese) or peanutbutter.

Jij eet [something] means "you eat" or "you're eating".
Dutch grammar works a bit different than english.

 

[I4sillypwr]

Ahh so you're getting all rhetorical on me eh.
Logical and faith in one sentence.... that does not compute.
What'd I win? Where's my beer?

I -do- have sound reasons to 'fight' for. I am not just throwing a tantrum with todays topic being religious faith.
I do have beliefs. I think you're wasting your time and making yourself dependant with yours...but hey, it's your life.

I have studied history, and socioligy. I've been to bible classes and been to theology classes on a weekly base. I come from a rich cultural and religious environment. I can honestly say, that organised religion, as you call it, is actively trying to keep it's followers stupid and naive. (Where'd dinosaurs fit in the theology again?)

To start with, it's a proven fact that people actively practicing a faith, any faith, in a tight knit community, makes them more succeptable to the peer pressures involved. Like you said yourself; people practicing a faith do not perse represent that faiths guides to its fullest, or even at all.

This is where socioligy kicks in. People are sheep, as stated before. It's also a known fact that power corrupts. See a pattern here? I don't think I need to elaborate on this. Point is, that it's mostly the people referred to above, that are the key figures in the "organised religion".

So yes, I have a big problem with organised religion.

Look, the principles are all sound.
A community to keep eachother in check. Works fine most times...up to a point obviously.
Some sort of faith or religion, for a bit of much needed comfort and support at times. It's definately cheaper than a shrink.
Psychologically speaking it's all good and well. If it works for you, fine. I prefer to talk to real people instead.

It starts becoming a problem when someone walks up to me , telling me what a bad person I am for working on a sunday, when I'm trying to get someone's car running so he can make an honest living the next day.

We make fun of a bushwhacking negroe in a grass skirt with a carved mask on doing a rain dance. Yet a bishop with a robe on and a pointy hat is serious business? Come on now...you're asking me for a logical reason?

hmmmmm I guess I owe you a beer Bas :lol: (but really only because I put "faith" instead of "belief")

Yes I do more fully understand your views against organised religion after your last post. I think part of our problem is that I grew up in a community of mostly dutch people that are descended of people who left the netherlands because of a religous difference with those who stayed. Well anyway that is what I have been led to believe(my uncle is a christian reformed pastor and dutch btw)

I do actually feel the same way as you about power corrupting. I actually really find that large churches(500+ people) to hold true to your thoughts about them. I have been to to two churchs in my adult years that I have enjoyed being a part of.

The church that my parents go to and that I have been attending for the last 2 yrs really puts a HUGE emphasis on people joining small groups of 20 people or less in an attempt to create a more natural atmosphere for free thought and exchange of ideas. I think something like that helps people to be more involved on a personal level than in a traditional type setting where everything is run through a church type government resulting in a certain dissconection of the single person from the direction of the church goings on etc...

The other church I've been a part of (and am thinking of rejoining right now) is a pretty much all black church made up of people who all live in my neighborhood. If you have ever been to a ghetto-ish church you will find that EVERYONE has a voice and EVERYONE has something to say all the time. While there is a more traditional style organization to this church everyone knows everyone else and everyone knows everyone else business and so on and so forth. Its a very very honest envornment and its ok to disagree and argue about differences. BTW 99% of the people are this church are Democrats so it's not really fair to say that all Christians vote Republican I think I might be the only one there that claims no political affiliation at all.

I think maybe "organized religion" in the netherlands and where I live might be two fundamentally different things in the end. I hope that they are and we are fighting some of the same battles Bas.

Don't worry Crxfisher. Bas and I have met in real life and I'm pretty sure we are both immune to being offended at all. This is actually the most tame arguement we have ever had :lol:

Come to N12 and I'll buy you a beer Bas.

PS: rememer it's only because I used the wrong word mauahahhahahahah!!!!!!