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the control arm moves in more than one axis.

the design of the ES bushings makes it that it forces the control arm to move in one axis.

the two simply dont match up.

they are NOT better. you cannot compare them to old, deteriorated OEM bushings. they are the equivalent to cross drilled rotors to me. in the end, worse for your car and youre better off with simply stock.
 

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btw, take apart your Function 7 arms and look at the difference between how they made their poly bushings and the ES design.

ive spoken with F7 a lot. and i wont go into detail. they know the limitations of the ES design and have specifically re-engineered their product differently for very good reasons.

the ONLY bushing i dont have a problem with in the suspension where the ES design works is the front upper control arm. because they are in line with each other, theyre designed to be restricted to one axis of movement. but then, the oem bushing offers an actual added spring rate to the suspension and i believe to be beneficial over the unrestrained poly.

poly is stiffer, but it does deform when heated and will eventually cause MORE slop in the suspension than OEM. im contending that ES bushings will deteriorate FASTER than your 18 year old bushings that you speak down of.
 

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mattminerDOTcom said:
i thought caster was a static thing. i dont see why you would want your wheel moving front to back? am i missing something obvious?

as far as i know, as my car is now it has limited front-back movement due to my aftermarket front crossmember. It has helm joints, nut bushings on the radius rods like stock.

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so think about that then. think about the name "RADIUS rod". its rotating about a point, specifically that heim joint. its NOT just moving up and down. its moving in an arc.

(for you math freaks, cosine law be damned, its not negligible in the suspension.)

and NO, caster is not static. nor is camber or toe. suspension is all dynamic.
 

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when did i say you WANT dynamic caster?

the thing is that caster IS dynamic.

so are you trying to say ES bushings are better because they PREVENT dynamic caster?

its not matter of the bushings. its a matter of the design of the suspension arms.

if you want as rigid, yet freely moving suspension as much as possible, you should spring for spherical bearings every where.

ES bushings are the furthest thing you can get to a spherical bearing.
 

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im not piecemealing the information because im trying to hold anything back. its because you keep the discussion going in your confusion and inability to see past the extra stiffness of poly over rubber. its a totally different design. it changes how the suspension works. and i believe in a bad way.

the silver bullet is as ive said. the ES bushings do not allow the control arms to move the way that they were designed. thats not a good thing. youre trying to argue, i think, that its actually a good thing. its not. it is what it is, and its trying to make it what it isnt.

take a look again at the link i showed you. look at how the rear lower control arm does angle forward, as well as rotate up and down. the arm is naturally going to want to be in that position and ES bushings are not allowing it. in the end, the bushing will bind the suspension, cause more friction, heat up and deform causing more slop.

but all this discussion about dynamic caster is a red herring. its not pertinent to why you shouldnt run ES poly bushings. its a totally different subject.

switching out the front radius rod bushings for the sake of reducing change in caster while braking is a good thing. ive switched them out for poly too, didnt notice a difference over stock rubber. ive heard many positive responses however about switching them out for spherical bearings. look at opmautosport or sbms. same effect as your changing the whole crossmember.

continuing onto a totally different subject, but since you mentioned it, the only reason you get stiffer springs (in racing) is to limit the dynamic changes in caster, toe, and camber by limiting the suspension's movement. like i said, totally different subject.
 

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youre getting it.

take apart the f7 bushings. (they come apart). notice the differences. thats all i can say. im holding that back because of intellectual property rights im privy of but dont care to reveal publicly. just know they that did they best to work around the poly issue. other companies dont have a clue.
 
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