[coldtotouch]

I'm curious is anyone knows, but what is the lightest set of brakes that you can get on a crx THAT HAVE BITE, specifically the Integra TYPE R Brake setup (both 4 or 5 lug) compared to the wilwood crx brake setup? Whats better? Is there anything superior to one of these?

 

[SETI20]

Wilwoods are undoubtedly lighter.

But they're also notorious for leaking, and having dust boot problems.
That's why I decided to go for an 11" OEM setup front and rear.

I got mine from Fastbrakes, and I'm extremely happy with my new toys.
I got the optional dual piston Legend brakes instead of the integra ones.

Granted, they're a bit heavy. But I can't say I really notice it over my VT 10.2" brakes. However, USDM brakes are PUNY...so you probably will notice a difference in rotational mass. Makes the car a bit more stable. I just got really lightweight wheels to compensate.

 

[coldtotouch]

Thats some great information Seti. A few things i'd like to address:

I got mine from Fastbrakes, and I'm extremely happy with my new toys.
I got the optional dual piston Legend brakes instead of the integra ones.

Which model did you specifically get? Do you have a link to the part online by any chance?
Does it bolt on with ease or are there any necessary modifications required?
What master cylinder and propvalve are you using with this setup? (I'm assuming VT 15/16"? 40/40?)
Also what brakelines? (Something braided?)

Granted, they're a bit heavy. But I can't say I really notice it over my VT 10.2" brakes. However, USDM brakes are PUNY...

Would you say the legend braking system is heavier than the Type R? Does it bite harder? Is there a difference other than the extra lug on the 5 bolt Type R setup as opposed to the 4 both Type R setup?

That's why I decided to go for an 11" OEM setup front and rear.

How exactly did you go about doing this? i haven't seen much for the rear brakes, i'd love to have a more balanced brake setup, though i heard the back brakes don't do too much work...

so you probably will notice a difference in rotational mass. Makes the car a bit more stable.

I wouldn't mind that so much really, stability is something i could use, i feel myself getting pushed around on a windy day... i just don't want to add weight unnecessarily without being able to justify it.

I just got really lightweight wheels to compensate.

This is something i'm going to look into much deeper. What wheels did you choose to go with? Would you know what an average weight for a lighter wheel would be?

Anyone know any actual weights of braking systems? I searched around but didn't find too much information.

Also weaknesses in braking systems, similar to what Seti mentioned about Wilwood would be very helpful!

But they're also notorious for leaking, and having dust boot problems.

 

[SETI20]

I have a VT front brake setup, so on my car, the Legend calipers bolted right up.
The VT knuckles are similar to the Civic EX ones. So if you do that swap, you're set. They can be sourced down cheap.

Just go to the fastbrakes site, and look up the 11" front upgrade.
Or you can send Brian Hasty an email, and just tell him what you have, and what it is you want.
I ordered my set to my specific needs. With cryo treated rotors to further prevent warping. Altho I have to admit that they're overkill as it is, and it's very unlikely to warp them anyway.
I also got the stainless steel brake lines with it.

Since my car, just like the Si already had discs in the rear, I just ordered the 11" rear upgrade. I've seen integra-R calipers used on the back, but I thought that made the car way too twitchy in the back. The bigger rotors are mainly for visual purposes. Looks odd...huge in front, tiny in back.
But I do notice substantial more braking power in the back. Mostly due to pad/rotor composition I suspect.

The 5 lug setup is useless. It only reduces your choice in wheels. Fastbrakes has the 5 lug rotors redrilled to 4x100. And on some applications you can use VW corrado 11" rotors, that are 4x100 from factory. But that depends on the setup, and the caliper offset.
Mild modding may be needed...but I think recently Fastbrakes does that before sending it out. (I had a bit of an arguement with them about this, since they didn't do it for me)

Wheel wise, I just opted for a set of Rota slipstreams.
They're cheap and light. I don't care it's the real deal. I take them to the track...and I'd be screwed if I would bang up a real gramlight or volk wheel.

oh, I looked up the packing slip for you.
The entire setup...
-Front rotors
-Rear rotors
-Front calipers
-Rear calipers
-Brake lines
-bolts, nuts, misc stuff
Weighed in at 45 pounds, including box, packaging materials and instruction leaflets.

 

[joshman]

Wilwoods are undoubtedly lighter.

But they're also notorious for leaking, and having dust boot problems.
That's why I decided to go for an 11" OEM setup front and rear.

Why did you have to go and say that. Just when I think I am finally ready to upgrade my brakes and have the exact kit picked out....you have to go and ruin it.

I was hoping to just buy a kit so I don't have to go around and pick up different parts from all over. Plus it is important that they fit inside my 15" fat fives.

 

[SETI20]

My legend set fits in my 15" speedlines, as well as my 15" stockie honda wheels.

Go to honda-tech and look up a guy named DRIVEN.
HE has -lots- of experience with wilwood parts. He ended up trading his kit with 1 dust boot going out all the time, and 1 leaky caliper, for an OEM honda big brake conversion.

 

[Pag]

i ordered a set of NSX brakes which ill hopefully be installing soon after they get here. theyre pretty much the same thing as the legend calipers, cept they say NSX.

ive driven cars with wilwoods and while they work ok they tend to chatter a bit with highspeed braking(100mph plus) and ive heard of lots of people having issues with them.

i think youll be happy with any of the oem honda upgrades. Fastbrakes has some awesome ready to go setups and theyre priced nicely compared to upgrade aftermarket kits.

 

[downest]

Not to knock your setup, but what is wrong with the OEM brakes? With good pads and stainless lines, and MAYBE some power slots, the OEM brakes are good enough to lock up azenis. Are you looking to track this car? Even if you are, there are a lot of race cars, ITA comes to mind, that are running rear drums! I seriously think oversized brakes are more for the look than anything, and you are adding rotational inertia as well.

 

[shadowcrx]

i am interested in the nsx set up anyone know where a write up on this, and how hard it is to swap them?

 

[SETI20]

NXS is the same process as the legend setup. Except 1 piston is slightly larger and they look silly on a CRX.

Anybody who doubts, I wish you could take a ride in my car.

Locking up wheels has NOTHING to do with braking power.
It's a lack of being able to transfer friction, and physically biting the pad into the rotor.

Bigger rotors means better friction distribution, better heat transfer, and less fading. The larger cycle time and greater rotational distance also have some interesting effects on stopping power.

Try to stop a turning CD putting your fnger on the middle. Now do the same on the outside.

Anyway, it's a whole different subject, and enough info to write a complete essay. Let me just say this.
On MY car I've had numerous different brake setups, on the same sets of wheels. And my current setup blows my mind.

 

[downest]

The reason I was using locking the wheels up as an example is it shows that the braking power (friction) is overcoming the tire to road friction. If you can do that with top-end street tires, assuming this is for a street only car, it's more than adequate. Power slots would take care of the fade, as well as different pads. All I'm saying is, I don't think it's necessary to spend tons of money upgrading the brakes, and since we were talking about the lightest setup, I would think the smaller Si stock brakes are lighter, and they concentrate the mass toward the middle of the wheel. I've driven an EF hatch (not a CRX, but almost the same) with Si brakes, SS lines, HPS pads, and power slots, and that setup was by far the best I've felt on an EF.
As an aside, I DO think the stock brakes look a little funny, especially if you don't have 14" wheels any more. From a cosmetic standpoint, I think aftermarket brakes do look MUCH better.

 

[shadowcrx]

what about upgrading your wheels to like 18 or 19s, you need bigger brakes for that don'you?

 

[downest]

If you put 18s or 19s on a CRX your vision probably keeps you from driving.

 

[baker_jeff]

Not to go off topic, but does anyone know about my brake setup? I'm pretty sure they're stock. A buddy of mine informed me that my SiR brakes are the same as Integra brakes? I have aftermark pads, and they sure grab quickly. More than enough braking power I think, when I jam too hard they lock up (on winter tires).

Jeff

 

[SETI20]

Yes, SiR are about the same (atleast bolt pattern wise) as integra brakes. (GSR)

About locking up the wheels;
I do not agree with downest.

Altho it's MUCH easier now to lock up the brakes if I'd want to, locking up does not represent the braking power a system has.

Small rotors tend to lock up faster, because the critical point of friction application is much lower. Even with power slots and better pads, you'll simply reach a point where the tiny brake cilinder, combined with the lower pad surface, will simply clamp on.

This is partly due to the pad simply tilting a bit.

I suggest reading up on the stop-tech website.
The "seat of your pants" method is deceiving sometimes.

I'm in the position where I can compare.
I had Bremboo slotted rotors and Ferodo DS2500 as OEM size. It was OK.
I did the VT front conversion with the same pads and disc types. MUCH better.
Now I have the powerslots and axxis pads, wich are similar, but huge.

MUUUUUCH better!
Per setup, stopping distance decreased drastically. And locking up or not has nothing to do with this. It's how much friction can you apply to a surface, without locking up the discs. Tire grip is related, but it's not solely dependant on it.

 

[Pag]

personally i like the appearance of nsx brakes on any honda car ive seen them on including the CRX. appearance in general is important to me as well since im heavily involved with show cars and i like having the wheels filled. not too mention brake upgrades add points.

but i do like performance as well considering the car will be street driven, and larger rotors handle heat and fade much better, as well as providing leverage for stopping. which i dig, since im adding turbo as well, and i like being able to stop the extra go. and yes i do worry about heat as anyone whos driven a car or motorcycle hard down a mountain road will attest to brake fade sucking majour ass.

 

[coldtotouch]

oh, I looked up the packing slip for you.
The entire setup...
-Front rotors
-Rear rotors
-Front calipers
-Rear calipers
-Brake lines
-bolts, nuts, misc stuff
Weighed in at 45 pounds, including box, packaging materials and instruction leaflets.

This sounds like the route i'm going to want to go. Can you give me the setup in a little more detail... ie. whats really required for the swap...
thanks

 

[downest]

I don't know much about brake setups, I'm just going on what I know and what I can put togther logically. I don't understand how smaller brakes lock up faster, wouldn't it make sense that the larger ones do, since they have larger pads and a torque advantage? Are you saying that their design makes them clamp TOO hard, and ultimately tilts the pad and locks the rotor? I guess I'd like to see a nice tech write up about the benefits etc of larger brakes.

I will agree about the heat, I have driven both cars and motorcycles in mountains, and fade sucks (and it's scary!). Seriously though, for a street car, that kind of situation doesn't happen THAT much, and changing to different pads can help that too. I'd like to see a pic of the NSX brakes on a CRX, like I said, I love the look of the brakes filling the wheel.

Has anyone ever seen inverted discs? My friend has an Audi 200S Quattro Turbo 20Valve (that's what he calls it, I know the name is longer than a Koenigsegg, but afaik that's what it is) and it has weird inverted discs on the front. The idea is to make the brake as big as possible in a given wheel, keeping the caliper on the inside. Here's a link to what I'm talking about

 

[SETI20]

Well the most important factor of smaller brakes locking up faster, is inaccurate power distribution.
There's less feel to them, the hydrolic pressure has less surface area to spread out over. So it's not just a matter of grip.

Seriously. www.stoptech.com

I love the look of the reversed calipers. There's another benefit to these. I've seen manufacturers incorporate air ducts in them to cool the brakes right at the source.

 

[downest]

Thanks Seti, I have been looking at stoptech. I don't always like to get info from manufacturers, they are trying to sell product after all.
/offtopic
The reversed calipers are pretty cool, though I must say that Audi can't stop when you want it to. I help him work on it a lot, and the wheels frequently get stuck on the hubs, the only thing I can think of is the heat change must be greater closer to the center (it uses the center of the hub to line up the wheel, and uses bolts instead of studs to hold it on). My friend got the car for free in Kansas (where he's from), all he had to do was put in a new clutch to get it going. He couldn't get the wheels off at home, so he tried taking it to a shop, THEY couldn't either! So he drove it all the way back here, luckily not getting a flat all the way. We beat on the wheels for a couple of hours with all sorts of tools, didn't budge at all. We ended up loosening the bolts and doing some slow circles in the parking lot. It hasn't been that bad since, but it's still a bit of a chore to get them off. Still, it's a fun car, total sleeper, it's a big 4 door audi with no badges. There are switches on the dash to turn the ABS off and to lock the diffs, not to mention it's just plain fast, especially for a car that size.
/offtopic

What are the benefits of the inverted brakes other than the extra room you get?