[neonmarine]

I see alot of Hondas who do the NA thing. The big cams, high compression pistons the works. I haven't seen much more that 220hp. But still they do it.

Then the turbo guys get the GT35s, T28/T25 and T3/T4 series. They make big power. Duh. But do they get good under curve power in either set up.

Enlighten me.

 

[Tiersin]

Honestly, N/A or turbo comes down to 3 factors. Engine, Money, and cost. The biggest being money. A good N/A setup will cost BIG$$$ and a lot of time and tuning. Turbos are simple, efective, relativly cheep, but still require tuning. There is no right way to go. Honestly, i think honda enging are built for turbos/Superchargers. Small little engines tend to not be affected as much by cams, porting and stuff like that because of there size. But there size plays to the idea of forced induction. Less displacement means a turbo needs to work less to make boost.In the end, its all up to what you want to do with it.

 

[jfrolang]

Some people like the rush of high-revving engine that will pull harder and harder all the way to redline, screaming the whole way. I guess it might also be satisfaction in pulling power out of a small engine without 'cheating' with boost.

Turbocharging definitely produces the big numbers, but it changes the attitude of the engine. For better or worse is a matter of opinion. There's also the question of reliability, if the boost goes too high or the a/f goes too lean, it can throw a rod right out of the block.

Everything's a compromise, and it ultimately is a personal preference.

 

[neonmarine]

Less displacement means a turbo needs to work less to make boost.

I'm not to sure about this. As a SRT4 owner, I spend the majority of my time looking to mate the perfect turbo to fit my needs. This involves research out to yinyang. And the idea of smaller engines making the turbo spool quicker or better has been proven wrong.

The bigger the engine the larger the turbo you can hang and still get a decent spool up. Say you have a B18C with a GT35R and I have my 2.4L with the same turbo. I will spool up faster and get a more useable power band then the B18. You will make up for it in the revs (8000+ to my 6500), but I will be quicker. Not to mention the obvious displacement difference.

I'm not biting your head off, but I believe you are very wrong with that statement.

As for the NA thing, I would like to build a NA 2.4L in a 90's Neon. Lots of fun getting the most out of an engine without "help".

 

[Tiersin]

well, sorry to missinform. its just what i've been told.

 

[lessonsinspeed]

I personally plan to go turbo. To get the numbers, it's the most effective way. Most of the guys I've talked to who run NA do it either for reliability reasons or because they want to break away from the "turbo norm." For all other purposes, FI seems to be the way to go. But like Tiersin said, to get the reliability and the top numbers from either setup, (good) tuning is a necessity.

 

[downest]

Some people like the rush of high-revving engine that will pull harder and harder all the way to redline, screaming the whole way.

OOh... I need a new pair of pants.

I personally prefer/have/love NA, but what everyone said is right. You won't be able to make the huge numbers of the turbo motors, at least not on a budget, but you can pull enough power out of at least a D16 for cheap if you go NA. I'm planning on 150/160whp when I'm done with my mini-me, which IMO is plenty for a CRX on the street/autoX. Remember too that that's usable, predictable power. If you're putting down tons of power with a turbo, chances are you have a bit of turbo lag, the turbo'd cars I've driven have extremely non-linear power delivery.

 

[ComposiMo]

Turbo is where its at.... and not just because of the power.

I'm a big fan of QUIET cars. I hate N/A because of the noise required if you have a powerful setup. The only exception to this would be a K20A Type-R or S, behind a quiet stock-ish exhaust... of course it won't make nearly the same power though, but for that cost, you could have a nicely turbo'd B.

Now, with turbo, you can have it even quieter, and make even more power, even using a stock motor.

Its a touch more complex, but if done right, it isn't all that less reliable... actually, i feel that it is more reliable by FAR than an equally-powered N/A setup when put together right 8)

And once again.... shhhhhh.... quiet

 

[neonmarine]

the turbo'd cars I've driven have extremely non-linear power delivery.

What were there setups?

 

[RamaCrx]

Turbo is where its at.... and not just because of the power.

I'm a big fan of QUIET cars. I hate N/A because of the noise required if you have a powerful setup. The only exception to this would be a K20A Type-R or S, behind a quiet stock-ish exhaust... of course it won't make nearly the same power though, but for that cost, you could have a nicely turbo'd B.

Now, with turbo, you can have it even quieter, and make even more power, even using a stock motor.

Its a touch more complex, but if done right, it isn't all that less reliable... actually, i feel that it is more reliable by FAR than an equally-powered N/A setup when put together right 8)

And once again.... shhhhhh.... quiet

So what setup that doesnt cost 3-4000 would you get for a b16 with stock bottom end. 7 psi? Would you get an Ebay kit for 1000? Just parts? Which ones?

 

[ComposiMo]

Theres no way to do it -CHEAP- and have a good setup imho... however, you can cheat, and just buy the RIGHT parts the first time, and keep it to a bare minimum.

So... to a -stock- car, here's what i'd buy:

Turbo (This is the most important purchase... don't slack on it, and buy a POS cheap thing.. buy it right (and no, that does not mean cheap)). Maybe spend about $7-800 on a basic turbo with internal wastegate (important for budget setup).

EMS - Either TurboEdit, or ZDyne Gold SECU.... nothing else, unless you want to convert to OBD1, then Uberdata or Chrome. Lets shoot for the high end, and say $600 or whatever it is now for the ZDyne.

Log manifold and DP from a REPUTIBLE manufacturer. I think you can get a setup like this for about $500 or so for both.

450cc Mitsu injectors... not 'ideal', but they'll work great... can get them for between $50-100.

Oil feed and return kit - Expect to spend probably about $125 or so i think... dunno, i haven't bought these retail in some time. look for a place called StealthMode Performance... last i heard, they had good prices, and the proper steel fitting for the back of the block.

charge piping - This could be anywhere from $50 to $600, depending on materials and your own fabrication ability.

intercooler - Again, this can vary, but even some of the cheaper eBay ones work well. I guess expect from $250 up to $500 for something purty decent.

Thicker Headgasket (Cometic) to lower CR - $120

ARP Head Studs - $100~

blowoff valve - for low boost, a DSM one will work... expect somewhere around $25-40 for that.

Misc clamps and connectors, vacuum line, and stuff - Budget about $200 for "stuff"

At this point, you have everything you need to put together a reliable setup for low boost. Notice there is no wastegate other than the internal one on the turbo.... that'll work just fine. also, of note is there is no fuel pump. The stock pump will work fine up to a point, but when you do a modified pump, also do a FPR...

Anyway, so this totals $3385 (i estimated $300 on average for charge piping)

So that is MINIMAL, and it is over $3k, with no labor involved. However, this is what i consider minimal... after seeing people having SO many probalems with those bastard eBay kits, and throwing their money away and hurting their motors with cheap turbos, and mis-management of their fueling and ignition, i'm not about to recommend anything cheaper.

So for less than $3k you ask? won't happen imho, without getting stellar deals on stuff, and even then, those "deals" can EASILY come back and bite you because you wind up buying cheaper parts just trying to save a few bucks.

With a good turbo setup, you can go quite far with it though, especially on a B16. My old B16 with stock bottom end and good management survived happily at 16psi, making just over 300whp with a bitty T3 turbo... it was FUUUUUN!

 

[jfrolang]

hmmm.. I was figuring more like 5k for a turbo setup. I definitely see turbo in my future, need an engine swap first though.

 

[ComposiMo]

Well, this is all "basics"... for a very good setup with a very good manifold, with a better turbo, using the better BOV and Wastegate options, as well as having boost control of some sort, turbo timers, etc... with good stainless exhaust, aluminum charge piping, the GOOD connectors and T-Bolt clamps, etc.... yea, $5k is about right to start getting into that stuff.. could go upwards of $7k even, depending on components and how nice(custom) you want things. for that setup i listed above, i was more referring to the absolute basics of basics..

 

[baker_jeff]

My stock B16 is putting away happily on 10lbs. Turbonetics T3, cust manifold, external wastegate, 310cc injectors, stock fuel pump, etc. Got away for under $2000 cdn.

 

[RamaCrx]

Well, this is all "basics"... for a very good setup with a very good manifold, with a better turbo, using the better BOV and Wastegate options, as well as having boost control of some sort, turbo timers, etc... with good stainless exhaust, aluminum charge piping, the GOOD connectors and T-Bolt clamps, etc.... yea, $5k is about right to start getting into that stuff.. could go upwards of $7k even, depending on components and how nice(custom) you want things. for that setup i listed above, i was more referring to the absolute basics of basics..

I am really torn at this point. I have a b20 block sitting here to use, but I know a turbo will really rock.

http://www.turbo-kits.com/crx_turbo_kits.html

Any of these make sense?

I already have an Hondata S200 for fuel management and have a set of 450cc's sitting on my shelf. I know I will never get into the 12s without the turbo or huge investment.

 

[ComposiMo]

Rich: The only one there on that page i'd lay down $$ for is the Full-Race setup... assuming you don't need A/C.

baker: Thats cool... My list is all assuming new stuff, and retail prices, and what i consider decent parts/pieces. If you can swing deals, or are ok with running the risk of buying used, or don't care what your piping and setup looks like, then congrats. However, i won't recommend that be done (other than getting hookups on new parts), because there are WAY too many issues involved in buying used, or using cheap connectors, and having exhaust shop weld up steel for charge piping, etc., and it winds up frustrating first-time-turbo-players.

Rich: You'll spend the same or more going 12's all motor than 12's turbo... and the all motor will be finicky, loud, and annoying to drive... If 12's are your goal, and you want to stay nice and streetable, look to turbo definitely.

 

[jfish360]

wut u mean to loud to drive?

 

[downest]

wut u mean to loud to drive?

Come take a ride in my car or matt's, it's like sitting on the wing of a turboprop plane.

 

[ComposiMo]

BBBzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzz!!! Allllllllll the time... lol :lol:

 

[downest]

You forgot pop pop pop!