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Discussion Starter · #1 ·
....we're still fighting our own.

Just an illustration on what scars a war will leave. You can prepare yourself for these things the next 60 years.

Life imprisonment for former SS member
A former Dutch citizen that joined the German SS in WW2, and has killed at least 3 members of the underground resistance, will have to finish a life in prison sentence, so the court in Aken (Germany) has decided.
The 85 year old defendant will have to serve up his sentence in a German prison.

The man had been sentenced to death per absentee in 1949, but by that time had already fled to Germany. The sentence was later rescinded to life imprisonment. Since 1980 the Dutch government has been trying to have the defendant extradited. In 2003, the Dutch ministry of justice requested the German courts to execute the sentence in Germany instead. This request has now been granted. The defendant could still appeal his case to the supreme court in Cologne.

The man lost his Dutch citizenship after he was sentenced to death in Amsterdam, for aiding the enemy, and treason during a time of war.
Since then, Germany has viewed the man as with no nationality. It's still judicially undecided if the man can be seen as a German citizen, since he was never officially granted citizenship. Germany has a no-extradition policy.

The Netherlands has long since abolished the death penalty. But during times of war, death by firing squad is technically still possible.
 

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The man is 85 years old and wasn't allowed to live in his home country his entire life away from everything and everyone he knew growing up...I think that's punishement enough. And it would be a huge waste of money to force an 85 year old man to die in jail.
 

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cbstd said:
So does this mean that George W. Bush will be called to answer for his actions one day? I certainly hope so.

Scott
Nope he commited no war crime.

It seems like maybe every 5-6 years there is someone from WWII found here in the states that was a Concentration camp guard or something and is sent back to Europe for a war crime trial. The last one I remember was a guy living in Cleveland.
 

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I know the guy followed Hitler, was a stupid son of a b**** for it, and did some screwed up stuff but what war crimes did he do?.....fight for what he belived in? He just went and joined the side he agreed with and ended up being on the loseing side. I wont feel bad at all if he gets life in prison but I can see how many times even the law is biased.
 

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Discussion Starter · #11 ·
JKG08 said:
I know the guy followed Hitler, was a stupid son of a b**** for it, and did some screwed up stuff but what war crimes did he do?.....fight for what he belived in? He just went and joined the side he agreed with and ended up being on the loseing side. I wont feel bad at all if he gets life in prison but I can see how many times even the law is biased.
Are you fricking kidding?

During a time when Holland was under siege of the German occupational forces, he defected to the enemy, and murdered several of his own countrymen aiding the enemy.
Explain to me exactly how this is not treason, thus a war crime.

Lets for the sake of the argument say that Canada invaded the US.
While your friends and family are fighting for their life, your next door neighbor decides "I kinda agree with those cannucks". He gathers some men, and shoots a couple of american citizens defending their country.
This OK, because he fights for what he believes in?

In an us versus them situation you always have the option to flee, wich is bad enough. Turning arms on your neighbors is something different altogether.
 

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don't get me wrong I completely agree with you but let me put it like this.....there were plenty of Germans who left germany and joined the UK army and the army;s for other countries fighting Germany.....how many of those people do you see getting prison sentences?
 

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Discussion Starter · #13 ·
OK, I see where you are going.
The big difference here, is that they left their country (which is still defecting), and joined the _army_ of the opposing forces.
The SS was basically the traitor devision for civilians.
Also, defecting Germans were defecting because they morally objected to invading and occupying other countries, firebombing civilians, and gassing jews and other minorities. Ever seen what the germans did to Rotterdam as an "example"? Google it up.

Remember that the blitzkrieg tactics are nothing more than a fancy words for driving tanks into a city, shooting the civilians, and force the army to surrender before they even got out of their bunks. The first couple of thousand casualties of the second world war were women and children sleeping in their beds.

Dutch defectors were just cowards and sympathizers. Nothing morally superior to it.
 

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again.......I know the German's where evil and were obviously the bad guys.......I'm just saying that trying to be as unbiased as posslible it would make sense that those who left Germany did the exact same thing as what this guy did.....the only real difference is that Germany lost so now those people are considered brave for leaveing the enemy. I agree that this guy deserves life in prison for what he did but if he gets it then shouldn't the German's who left get it too? I'm not talking about my morals here.....I mean legally........the laws are bias.
 

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Discussion Starter · #15 ·
Ok, legally speaking then.
What do you think happened to American soldiers that shot civilians?
Do you think they were awarded with a special unit, or put up against a wall and shot.

There are countless of German war veterans. I even met a couple myself.
They were just soldiers following orders during a war. Nothing happened to them. After the war was over, they were returned home, and lived out their lives.
Again. We're not talking about normal circumstances here.
 

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War is not a crime, it is the final act of diplomacy. To call everyone in warfare a criminal is incorrect. If this were true, President Lincoln would be our greatest war criminal ever since his actions caused the most loss of US lives in our history. Time does not judge a person, the laws and legal system do.
Warfare is governed by laws and when either side does not abide by the laws they are held accountable. This is why US soldiers who did things like scaring prisoners by letting their dogs bark at them are spending years in jail.
Just because someone has lived a peaceful life for years does not excuse their actions. They are still war criminals.
Fortunately there are still people alive who survived these atrocities who will not allow us to forget what happened.
 

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daveb91 said:
It will never happen dude. Johnson never was tried for sending us to Vietnam
President Kennedy was actually the one to sign the Foreign Assistance Act of 1962 which provides "…military assistance to countries which are on the rim of the Communist world and under direct attack."

He also sent 16,000 troops before he died. I love how people always associate Nixon or Johnson as the reason for the Vietnam War.
 

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ok SETI so let me get this straight before I start saying stuff and making myself look like an idiot (if people here don't think that already).......this guy went to Germany and joined the German SS right?......do they know for sure that he shot civilians and what not? and if he did......was he ordered to or did he just do it on his own grounds? I see how leaveing his country to fight for the other side is treason so yes he should be jailed.....we agree on that. But what I'm trying to get at is that many Germans did the EXACT same thing but are not being jailed for treason.....so just becasue someone holds different beleifes we are to make our laws to say that if they dont agree with majority they're automatically wrong? Unless the guy directly shot civilians on his own and not because he was commanded to I don't see much of a difference. If all he did was went and joined the Germans to fight other soldiers (be it British, French, US ,ect.) then I don't see how that is any different than the Germans who left Germany and joined the allies.

and just to make sure no one gets me wrong here I have to say that I am in no way trying to justify his actions. I'm simply saying that the Germans who left did the exact same thing and aren't being punished. Morally I don't think that the Germans who left Germany should be punished.....but legally.....they should so the laws are biased.
 

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Discussion Starter · #20 ·
This is obviously all related to who the agressor is.
The hostile take over of a country is an act of war. This gives a clear indication of where the bias ought to be.

Germans rebelling against their own occupational army would make them freedom fighters, underground rebels, etc.
Dutch people, collaborating with the occupational forces that are actively suppressing their countrymen would be traitors.

I see right and wrong. Not some "bias".

See, there is a subtle difference.
People on the allied side, mainly dutch, french, polish etc troops, did not defect. There were no conscientious objectors. They weren't fighting because they were ordered to, but they were fighting for their homes and lives.

German soldiers did have a choice. They did not HAVE to run over a country, bombing cities, killing people. But the nazi's did not give their own much of a choice either. Do what you're told. Or die on the spot.
There are countless witness reports of german soldiers rounding up civilians, and ending up getting shot themselves for refusing to execute women and children.
So the only choice they had, was defect, and fight alongside resistance fighters. Other countries would not have them either.

I understand that most americans have a poor understanding of the war, and aren't as confronted with it as we still are today. But sit down for a moment, and think about what you are saying.

Are planting roadside bombs in Iraq, killing US soldiers acts of terrorism, or acts of heroism?
 
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