Wierd Steering - $1,700 repair bill

821 Views 26 Replies 7 Participants Last post by Chubby Bunny, 1 mo ago

Chubby Bunny

Discussion Starter · 2 mo ago

When turning sharply to the right, the left wheel hops/drags every few feet and there is noticeable resistance at the wheel. I also noticed that with the steering wheel centered, the wheels were still pointing to the right by maybe 10-15 degrees. On the road, it drives normally (for now). I took it to Les Schwab, thinking maybe tied rod, or rack. According to them, it needs both, which I find surprising. Why would both fail at the same time?

There's no way we're paying that much so once again, I will do the work myself. They wanted $800 alone, just for a rack!

My plan is to order all of the parts so they're on hand for the operation, and return what is not needed. (Hoping it's just tie rods).

With the tie rods removed, how can I tell if the rack is good or bad?

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Baker

· #2 · 2 mo ago

Could an axle be binding up?
Is there play in your steering, if not, the rack is probably fine.
Get the car in the air with the wheels unloaded.
Grab the wheel at 12 and 6 o'clock, rock the wheel from the top and bottom, if you get play, more than likely ball joints.
Grab the tie rods and see if there is play in those while you're there.

jwharnish

· #3 · 2 mo ago

Chubby Bunny said:
When turning sharply to the right, the left wheel hops/drags every few feet and there is noticeable resistance at the wheel. I also noticed that with the steering wheel centered, the wheels were still pointing to the right by maybe 10-15 degrees. On the road, it drives normally (for now). I took it to Les Schwab, thinking maybe tied rod, or rack. According to them, it needs both, which I find surprising. Why would both fail at the same time?

There's no way we're paying that much so once again, I will do the work myself. They wanted $800 alone, just for a rack!

My plan is to order all of the parts so they're on hand for the operation, and return what is not needed. (Hoping it's just tie rods).

With the tie rods removed, how can I tell if the rack is good or bad?

You can tell if ball joints or tie rods need replaced by the amount of movement you get at the wheel. Like Baker said. Jack it up, and check play at wheel's. up and down play, ball joints, side movement tie rods. Steering rack play check with how much movement at tires when steering wheel is moved. That play is adjustable at steering box. My guess box may need adjusted, but it's a rack and minor setup. Not much usually goes wrong with that simple setup. Once you determine if ball joints or tie rods are bad, you can feel the movement at the bad piece.
If steering not centered, that a alignment issue with how the car was aligned. Most shops put a steering wheel lock on wheel at center, before they adjust the front toe.
Of course a Shop will just want to replace everything. Even the parts that are not broken. How much is shop labor these days?

msc

· #4 · 2 mo ago

Sounds to me like the tie rods are out of adjustment to the point of allowing the left tire to contact the body or suspension in a hard right turn.

Put the front end on jack stands and do some inspecting. Look/feel for play in both inner and outer tie rod ends, torn boots, point where the tire may be contacting.

With the steering locked grab each wheel at 3 and 9 and feel for play. If there is much motion inspect to see if it’s coming from the inner or outer rod ends. A less likely possibility would be play at the pinion or column u-joints. Play at rod ends will be free and easy motion. Play at other points you will feel that your are moving the rack to produce the motion.

Any serious problems will also show up as play in the steering wheel with the car sitting still. There will always be a little motion in the steering wheel before your fighting to scrub the tires on the ground. If you have significant motion find the joint that is allowing the motion.

The possible problems a rack can have are: Play at the inner rod end, torn boots, worn rack end bushing, and play at the pinion. The most common problems are torn boots and worn inner tie rod ends. A bad rack end bushing will mostly show up as a shimmy that isn’t caused by tires.

If you have any parts that are worn to the point of being dangerous you should be able to locate them by looking for play in the system. If you can’t find any badly worn parts you don’t need to spend money on the non-problem. If the worst problems you can find are torn boots and tie-rod adjustments you can DIY that.

Mike

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BrakeExpert

· #5 · 2 mo ago

stupid question, but does the car have the correct tie rods? every once in a blue moon someone puts the wrong side on and will turn the wheel and itll rub. The "jumping" is more likely to be axle than rack, but id check for damage by pulling back the accordian boot (called the bellows sometimes) and looking at the actual teeth on the rack. Also check for play or visible damage on the steering column in the car.

Chubby Bunny

Discussion Starter · #6 · 2 mo ago (Edited)

I jacked it up and checked for play. No up and down play but maybe an .5 to 1 inches of side to side on both wheels. Suspension also makes popping noises when turning sharply to the right. I could move both outer tie rods by hand but I'm not sure if the movement was excessive. No play at all in the steering. I'm starting to wonder if it's actually the drive shaft.

joelidge

· #7 · 2 mo ago

Popping when you turn is generally a failing CV joint. Replacing an axle isn't a difficult job most of the time as long as you can get the fill bolt for the trans and axle nuts off. Using a weighted socket for the axle nuts on an impact makes it much easier. I generally use my electric impact with a weighted socket and generally don't need to bust out the Aircat.

Play side to side of that much would be uncontrollable if indeed there is that much play in the system. I assume this is just the play in the steering lock which is normal.

Check to see if there is any marks on the inner fender where the wheel would have came in contact with the chassis. Also check where in the rack the center wheel position is. With the wheels pointed straight, count the rotations all the way to the left then count them all the way to the right. While it is OK to be slightly off, if it is a quarter or half rotation off, that isn't good. This would result in far more wheel angle in one direction than the other. Also, the likelyhood of the rack actually being bad is very low. The rack is basically three parts. The passenger side bushing can fail as it is plastic and this would be noticeable if you can move the inner tie rod up and down. That is a $10 part and the hardest part about rebuilding the rack is just the time to drop the cross member.

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Chubby Bunny

Discussion Starter · #8 · 2 mo ago

I replaced the d.s. cv shaft and outer tierod and it made no difference. I was really convinced that this was the problem.

The banging noise is so loud I'm almost afraid to drive it.

I'm at a different Les Schwab, trying to get a second opinion. Getting tired of this car.

Chubby Bunny

Discussion Starter · #9 · 2 mo ago

Les Schwab was really no help. They thought the inner tie rods seemed loose and maybe one of the ball joints. But this was their 'free inspection'. They didn't have time for a full diagnostic inspection; I would have to come back for that.

But I did notice something interesting. With the clutch disengaged while turning right, no banging noise. With clutch engaged (drive shafts loaded up), banging noise. That means it must be a CV joint, right? I replaced the driver's side shaft today, which didn't make a difference. Maybe I should try the passenger side next? It's rather new (replaced it last year), but maybe it failed?

Chubby Bunny

Discussion Starter · #10 · 2 mo ago

It's the diff!

With the car on jackstands, I was rotating the wheels back and forth and then I noticed some resistance. Then I noticed that when I rotated the driver's side wheel back and forth, the shaft was moving up and down where it goes into the diff. It splines in fine but the gears inside the diff must be loose, causing them to bind when making turns. That would explain all of the wierdness with the steering:

Outer wheel sometimes 'hops' when going around corners, probably because the axle is locking up.
Sometimes the car wants to steer left on its own and it takes effort to straighten out the wheel.
Violent banging noises when going around corners.

It's probably related to the clunking that we noticed as soon as we swapped-in this transmission. It only happens under acceleration going into 1st and 2nd. Possible causes included: motor mounts, cv shafts, suspension bushings, wheel bearings, and diff pin. So we've been accelerating it gingerly ever since November but these recent developments mean that the problem is getting worse (because we keep driving it).

Fortunately, I still have the old hf transmission so I will swap that out next week. It will be a little slower but no more clunking. Maybe I will have the si transmission rebuilt..... it's probably beyond my skill level.

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jwharnish

· #11 · 2 mo ago

Chubby Bunny said:
It's the diff!

With the car on jackstands, I was rotating the wheels back and forth and then I noticed some resistance. Then I noticed that when I rotated the driver's side wheel back and forth, the shaft was moving up and down where it goes into the diff. It splines in fine but the gears inside the diff must be loose, causing them to bind when making turns. That would explain all of the wierdness with the steering:

Outer wheel sometimes 'hops' when going around corners, probably because the axle is locking up.

Sometimes the car wants to steer left on its own and it takes effort to straighten out the wheel.

Violent banging noises when going around corners.

It's probably related to the clunking that we noticed as soon as we swapped-in this transmission. It only happens under acceleration going into 1st and 2nd. Possible causes included: motor mounts, cv shafts, suspension bushings, wheel bearings, and diff pin. So we've been accelerating it gingerly ever since November but these recent developments mean that the problem is getting worse (because we keep driving it).

Fortunately, I still have the old hf transmission so I will swap that out next week. It will be a little slower but no more clunking. Maybe I will have the si transmission rebuilt..... it's probably beyond my skill level.

88's do have a different spline input shaft on the transmission. Not sure what year Si tranny you have, unless it's an 88, you may have to swap out some clutches. Problem is the disc, not the pressure plate, but the size has to match.

Chubby Bunny

Discussion Starter · #12 · 2 mo ago

I just sourced an SI tranny for $300. Picking it up tomorrow.

jwharnish

· #13 · 2 mo ago

Chubby Bunny said:
I just sourced an SI tranny for $300. Picking it up tomorrow.

That's better than $1700 steering quote, which would have done nothing. Again check clutch disc fits input shaft. 88 is the only year that has a different spline number input shaft.

Chubby Bunny

Discussion Starter · #14 · 2 mo ago

jwharnish said:
That's better than $1700 steering quote, which would have done nothing. Again check clutch disc fits input shaft. 88 is the only year that has a different spline number input shaft.

This one is off a '90 SI. I actually don't remember which clutch I have on the car now since it came with the engine that we rebuilt. I'll see if I can figure it out based on the clutch kit that we purchased. Hopefully it's a match.

The Si trans that we bought today had been sitting for a while (indoors) and looking inside the diff, it looked a little rusty. No fluid came out at all. If I replace the seals, is it ok to soak the inside in solvent to clean it up?

msc

· #15 · 2 mo ago

Should be fine to slosh it with some solvent. I would use mineral spirits. It’s my go to parts cleaning solvent for greasy parts. Actually I buy paint thinner because if you read the can it usually says 100% mineral spirits and is cheaper then if you buy the can labeled mineral spirits.

Mineral spirits will be safe for the seals but it’s a good idea to go with fresh seals anyway. The input shaft seal is a judgment call. If you don’t change it and have a leak you will be kicking yourself. To change it requires splitting the case and at that point you may as well replace the input shaft bearing because they always go bad and you have to remove it to get to the seal. To properly replace the bearing requires checking/adjusting the shims.

Mike

Chubby Bunny

Discussion Starter · #16 · 2 mo ago

msc said:
Mineral spirits will be safe for the seals but it’s a good idea to go with fresh seals anyway. The input shaft seal is a judgment call. If you don’t change it and have a leak you will be kicking yourself. To change it requires splitting the case and at that point you may as well replace the input shaft bearing because they always go bad and you have to remove it to get to the seal. To properly replace the bearing requires checking/adjusting the shims.

Mike

You're probably right but OMgosh, that basically means taking the whole thing apart! Yikes.

Chubby Bunny

Discussion Starter · #17 · 2 mo ago

I got the tranny apart but the diff won't come out! It's supposed to come out nice and easy, right? I can wiggle it all around, though. What could be holding it? Should I try pressing it out?

Below is a video:

Mista Bone

· #18 · 2 mo ago

bad diff bearing on the drivers side. Drive it out by wedging a metal shaft into the DS axle opening and hammer away. You will need to set the case up right. Hopefully the outer race comes out before all the balls drop out.

I have pics somewhere of this happening on a recent build. When you mentioned the DS Axle moving up and down I knew right away what it was.

What is your location? I'm in SW Ohio, currently nothing to drive but at some point I can offer to help out or "teach"

Mista Bone

· #19 · 2 mo ago

PS: I like tranny Pr0n so take plenty pics. With 25 years of playing with these trannys I can see things most others just glance over.

Chubby Bunny

Discussion Starter · #20 · 2 mo ago

Bremerton, WA.

This is actually a tranny that I bought to replace the one in the car. I just thought it would be wise to replace bearings and seals..... and was curious about some of the rust that I saw on the diff. I'm rebuilding it in my storage unit.

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